Great Stuff Found on the Web — Two Synods by Eric Comstock

Here is another video contrasting the two types of worship in the synod today. It’s from Eric Comstock. Check it out. President Elect Harrison certainly has his work cut out for him to try and bring unity of practice to the LCMS.

About Norm Fisher

Norm was raised in the UCC in Connecticut, and like many fell away from the church after high school. With this background he saw it primarily as a service organization. On the miracle of his first child he came back to the church. On moving to Texas a few years later he found a home in Lutheranism when he was invited to a confessional church a half-hour away by our new neighbors.

He is one of those people who found a like mind in computers while in Middle School and has been programming ever since. He's responsible for many websites, including the Book of Concord, LCMSsermons.com, and several other sites.

He has served the church in various positions, including financial secretary, sunday school teacher, elder, PTF board member, and choir member.

More of his work can be found at KNFA.net.

Comments

Great Stuff Found on the Web — Two Synods by Eric Comstock — 175 Comments

  1. Andrew Strickland :
    @Jim Pierce #131
    …I argue that the music does not matter. If we are talking musical form, why use the organ or piano at all? Do they not bring attention to the one playing? Is staring at the pages of a book any different than staring at the words on a screen? I visited a church when I was in Colorado, they had a band in the back not the front. All of the music was done well and all of it from TLH pre LSB times. The pastor led the whole time. It was done well. It can be done… If the argument is a musical one, I do not see the point. It is all about Jesus because ultimately HE is the one that should be proclaimed and we must not lose sight of that in these discussions.

    Andrew,
    Pardon me while I add my two cents,
    I have to strongly disagree with your statement, “the music does not matter.” Music is not a neutral medium. Dan Reuning says, “One of the most frequent themes in Luther’s writings was that music, independent of any text or other influence, is a unique dynamic that either REINFORCES or UNDERMINES the meaning of the words.” [emphasis added] (Luther and Music by Daniel Reuning, Concordia Theological Quarterly, January 1984, p. 21)
    http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/reuningluthermusic.pdf

    You could have lyrics that give the clearest and best proclamation of the Gospel, but if they are wedded to music that undermines the meaning then what good have you really done?

    Andrew Strickland :
    @Jim Pierce #134
    Does this mean new hymns should not ever be written? Is a full band any different than organ and choir? What if they add trumpets? Are they making a sacrifice of praise? Your argument is predicated on the fact that organ and choir are the only ways to do the music. Is a full orchestra in church doing any worse? Are choirs and bell choirs doing any worse? I do not suggest doing knock off songs or using songs from other denominations. I suggest that other instruments may be used in the Divine service. Nothing else. My Orthodox family would contend that the organ is just as much of an abomination as any other instrument used in the Divine Service.

    I agree with you that we could use a number of different instruments to accompany hymns in church. However, care must be used on two different counts.

    1) Not all instruments lend themselves equally well to accompanying hymn singing. Some instruments are harder to sing with (especially for those singers who have no music training). I heard a music professor say once that the best instrument for accompanying singing is other human voices. After that he listed accompaniment instruments from good to poor (the pipe organ being one of the better ones).

    2) Some instruments inherently tend to draw more attention to themselves than others, (i.e. an electric guitar tends to draw more attention than an acoustic one). This can be overcome to a certain degree by the musician, but it takes more skill and conscious effort.

    I do not say that accompaniment can only be XXX (i.e. organ, piano). But I do say that it must be used in a way that does not draw attention away from the Word proclaimed in the hymn.

  2. @Jim Pierce #147
    Jim,
    thanks for you thoughts.
    I think that You and Andrew are driving, from different starting points, towards a common conviction: that God’s Word and the sacraments have to be at the center of worship. Period. Too often the style (contemporary or traditional or what ever you call it) becomes either an idol that’s worshipped rather than God or a rigidly held structure that ensnares souls rather than bringing Christ to them.
    Luther in his letter to the church at Lavonia called for unity in worship asking the pastors to sit down and find a common way of worship so that the people in town won’t be confused. He warns them against using freedom in a way that confuses the people.
    But before he reaches that conclusion he says something very interesting,

    In times gone by, councils were held for this purpose and all sorts of rulings and canons made in order to hold all the people to a common order. But in the end these rulings and canons became snares for the soul and pitfalls for the faith. So there is great danger on either side. And we need good spiritual teachers who will know how to lead the people with wisdom and discretion. Martin Luther, vol. 53, Luther’s Works, Vol. 53 : Liturgy and Hymns, ( ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan et al.;, Luther’s Works Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1965), Vol. 53, Page 46. </blockquote)
    Luther's invitation was to the pastors in one place. Now superimpose this same invitation on the whole church. His words are especially challenging for our time. No edict from any authority about what not to do will initiate an informing dialogue. Quite the opposite. Christians need to have a great convrersation about worship that starts with the Word and that affirms the common ground first. Only from a common confession, that what matters is Jesus revealed in the Word preached and the sacraments, can we start to have a productive conversation about worship.
    pax
    John

  3. @Jim Pierce #147
    Jim,
    thanks for you thoughts.
    I think that You and Andrew are driving, from different starting points, towards a common conviction: that God’s Word and the sacraments have to be at the center of worship. Period. Too often the style (contemporary or traditional or what ever you call it) becomes either an idol that’s worshipped rather than God or a rigidly held structure that ensnares souls rather than bringing Christ to them.
    Luther in his letter to the church at Lavonia called for unity in worship asking the pastors to sit down and find a common way of worship so that the people in town won’t be confused. He warns them against using freedom in a way that confuses the people.
    But before he reaches that conclusion he says something very interesting,

    In times gone by, councils were held for this purpose and all sorts of rulings and canons made in order to hold all the people to a common order. But in the end these rulings and canons became snares for the soul and pitfalls for the faith. So there is great danger on either side. And we need good spiritual teachers who will know how to lead the people with wisdom and discretion. Martin Luther, vol. 53, Luther’s Works, Vol. 53 : Liturgy and Hymns, ( ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan et al.;, Luther’s Works Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1965), Vol. 53, Page 46.

    Luther’s invitation was to the pastors in one place. Now superimpose this same invitation on the whole church. His words are especially challenging for our time. No edict from any authority about what not to do will initiate an informing dialogue. Quite the opposite. Christians need to have a great convrersation about worship that starts with the Word and that affirms the common ground first. Only from a common confession, that what matters is Jesus revealed in the Word preached and the sacraments, can we start to have a productive conversation about worship.
    pax
    John

  4. @John, an Unlikely Pastor #153

    John,

    Thank you for sharing the Luther quote and for your insights. I quoted from our confessions in a post above, and from that quote is a very interesting point made about the mass, “We cheerfully maintain the old traditions made in the Church for the sake of usefulness and peace. ” What I find interesting is that Luther and our Lutheran fathers didn’t see a need to reinvent the wheel where the mass was concerned. In fact, they spoke against what other Reformers were doing in abandoning all the “old traditions” in the name of Christian freedom. I think the “starting point” should be with the traditional (conservative) liturgy. If we want to make changes to the liturgy, then we should do so only after we evaluate the proposed changes under the lens of Holy Scriptures and our Lutheran confessions. To do otherwise is to cause division and forsake peace. Sadly, there are some who haven’t heeded the words from the Apology and they have set out to devise their own forms of worship. I think we can have a productive conversation about worship, but at the same time I understand that those who have replaced the traditional liturgy with modern Evangelical forms of worship have already demonstrated they aren’t interested in discussion. Had they been, they would have “cheerfully maintain[ed] the old traditions made in the Church for the sake of usefulness and peace” while presenting the Scriptural basis supporting their proposed changes. I think dialogue is great, but I am skeptical that those who have dumped the traditional liturgy are willing to come back around to it. In all fairness, there are guys like me who would never set foot in a divine service that looks like Evangelical America “contemporary worship.” I have been there and done that. I suffered for years under those forms of worship and suffered because they are ALL law driven. No sir, I would have the proper distinction of law and gospel throughout the divine service, from start to finish, and I really see no need to compromise. But don’t get me wrong, I am more than happy to dialogue and share the reasons for my beliefs, but no amount of dialogue will persuade me to drop the liturgy. And, just for clarity, I don’t think you are trying to persuade me to do so.

    Thank you and Andrew for a great dialogue. Both of you have been good sports.

  5. @Jim Pierce #154
    “If we want to make changes to the liturgy, then we should do so only after we evaluate the proposed changes under the lens of Holy Scriptures and our Lutheran confessions. To do otherwise is to cause division and forsake peace.”

    Jim,
    I could have saved a lot of time if I could have figured out a way to articulate what I wanted to say. I agree on this point. I think I have tried to say it, but not very well. If I would stop to focus and think clearly, I would answer more clearly. This is the most time I have every spent in front of a computer. I am building a web site for the school and as I wait for things to take effect, I look here, think-not to much, and respond. I am not for scrapping the liturgy, although I am pro screen but not for the reasons some may think. Thank you for the conversation Jim.

  6. Jim,
    I think this has been a great conversation with you and Andrew.
    One question I have for you is where would you start the conersation with a person who has come of age in a Lutheran Church and isn’t familiar with the “traditional” order?
    You said

    Jim Pierce :@John, an Unlikely Pastor #153
    I think the “starting point” should be with the traditional (conservative) liturgy. If we want to make changes to the liturgy, then we should do so only after we evaluate the proposed changes under the lens of Holy Scriptures and our Lutheran confessions. To do otherwise is to cause division and forsake peace.

    As a pastor in a Lutheran church I today see a varied worship life in the people of just this one congregation. I see many Lutherans in their 20’s and 30’s who haven’t grown up with a “traditional service” and are still worshipping, contributing, communing and serving God in Lutheran congregations. I believe many will buck what they percieve as the imposition of a “traditional” liturgy as another form of the law rather than a source of Good News.
    I’d suggest starting the dialogue about worship with a common understanding of Word and Sacraments as God’s entry point into the life of the church rather than assuming shared agreement on traditional order.
    thanks for the great conversation
    pax
    John

  7. John, an Unlikely Pastor :One question I have for you is where would you start the conersation with a person who has come of age in a Lutheran Church and isn’t familiar with the “traditional” order?

    Good question and I don’t think I have the best answer to it. Although, I would want to peek interest in our Lutheran confessions (I am not assuming such a person is ignorant of them, but it is a good place for Lutherans of today to connect with our Lutheran fathers on important topics.) and go through pertinent passages including the one from the Apology I quoted above. I would then point them to the order of the divine service given to us by Luther, which can be found on page 219 of “Concordia The Lutheran Confessions: A Reader’s Edition of the Book of Concord (2nd. Ed.), Luther’s form of the mass from 1523 is listed. We could compare Luther’s form of the mass with that practiced at our hypothetical person’s congregation.

    As far as music is concerned, I think it would be fitting to discuss what is the purpose of music in the church—and for that matter discuss why we go to church.

    I do agree with you that included in such a discussion should be dialogue over our common understanding of Word and Sacraments. In fact, isn’t the divine service ordered around word and sacraments?

    Frankly, though, the challenge I think facing us is that congregations where Lutherans in their 20’s to 30’s have been raised on “contemporary worship” forms have also been exposed to church growth philosophies and may not understand that the divine service is about Christ coming to us through the means of grace where we receive the forgiveness of sins. Rather, their understanding might be that the divine service is about evangelism to the community and about reaching God through sacrifices of praise (i.e. “praise worship” is mistaken for a means of grace). Worse yet, some of these same people may be in congregations where the narcissistic, consumerism, of Evangelical America has taken root and the divine service is all about a therapeutic discussion which empowers the individual to lead a morally good life and to make them feel better about themselves.

    I think there is a lot of work that needs to be done amongst us and I pray God will grant us all repentant hearts and ears to hear His Word.

  8. @John, an Unlikely Pastor #121

    Thank you for your response. I whole heartedly agree. In many ways the ship has sailed on the worship issue. There is no going back. We need to find a way to reach those people who have no clue about what is going on in church whether it is tradition or contemporary. They need to know the Christ of Scripture and the pure grace that is offered them through God’s only son.

    Blessings and Peace.

  9. @Shazam #160
    Thank you for your response. I whole heartedly agree. In many ways the ship has sailed on the worship issue. There is no going back.

    The prodigal son “went back.” What you’re saying is that the “mission” for Lutheranism is in our own churches.

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #123
    It’s not just about Jesus. It is about the Scriptural Jesus, the one crucified for our sins which gift is delivered in word and sacrament.

    Right! It’s not about exalting “the people in the band”.

    @John, an Unlikely Pastor #121
    I just met with a would be confirmand who has attended no Sunday School at all. His mother wants him to be confirmed. We walked through the sanctuary to look at the stained glass that tells the biblical story in 24 windows. He knew only 2 of the 24

    Why does a woman who has ignored his/her parental job for 12-14 years suddenly “want her son to be confirmed”? (Grandma or Grandpa has a bribe out?)
    I wouldn’t take that one on unless the parent attended every class and showed signs of progress in understanding what she was asking for. Otherwise, where is that kid going to be the Sunday after he’s confirmed? And what of those serious vows he makes before God?
    [Now someone will tell me that a kid can be exposed to what passes for Sunday School for six years in some places and not be much smarter. And I’d agree.]
    Back to the “mission for Lutheranism”!

  10. @Helen #161
    “Back to the “mission for Lutheranism”!
    I just cannot understand or agree with this statement. Do we only profess Christ to people who will become Lutherans? I don’t remember Jesus telling the disciples In Matthew 28 to Go and make Lutheran disciples… or in Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my Lutheran witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth… or Luke 24:49. Don’t get me wrong, Lutheranism is good and our “brand” does have a clear message to tell, but in the end does it really matter? Are only LCMS Lutherans and those in communion with them to be the only ones going to heaven? That mother and child may never go to church again and maybe they well. Who are we to decide who gets to hear it? I would not insist that the mother goes to confirmation as well. I would suggest, but not insist.

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #123
    It’s not just about Jesus. It is about the Scriptural Jesus, the one crucified for our sins which gift is delivered in word and sacrament.
    Right! It’s not about exalting “the people in the band”.

    I for one have never exalted the people in the band., or the organist, or the pastor in any kind of service I have attended.

  11. Pastor Rossow #123,
    I have been a “soloist” since I was 16 (I’m 41). I have sung a gambit of hymns & pieces, I have been asked to sing in English, Latin, French, & German. I only know 2 out of 4. I was a soloist for a local funeral home, as well, can you imagine what I was asked to sing there?

    The worst thing, I have ever been asked to do, is be “visible” by the congregation while singing, not “preforming” (I’m a theatre rat, so trust me, was to be my major).
    When I sing, I do NOT sing for the benefit of the people, pastor, or anyone else, physically present. I knew this when I was 11, playing my violin for a service. It is not about me, my talent or gift. I use it only, & I mean only, for Him, as it was given by Him, for Him alone! It should never be about entertainment or a hook to pack a house, only by those who give their thanks to Him, for the gift of their talent. Ever. Otherwise, someone is using people like me, for an ends to a means. That should never occur in our Father’s House!

    I have had to beg & plead, NOT to put me in the front, or even the “visable or exposed” side. I cannot do, what I do, if I know or even think, one person, thinks, about “me”. That is a danger, as it can take on a tone of pride, when people compliment or comment to you, afterwards. Humility is required in giving or sharing a gift. Otherwise, it ceases to be a gift & becomes a preformance.
    IMHO, if anyone, “asks” to be in view, they should not be “viewed” at all.

  12. @Dutch #163
    I totally concur, and while I do not oppose various musical styles I do believe that putting them in the front is a huge mistake, that unfortunately has been done. The new fangled no old fangled church design only aids to putting the attention elsewhere.

  13. Andrew,
    Your soooo right. Having said that, know what I said above w/my background, why would anyone place another brother or sister, in temptation or harm’s way?

  14. Andrew Strickland :Don’t get me wrong, Lutheranism is good and our “brand” does have a clear message to tell, but in the end does it really matter? Are only LCMS Lutherans and those in communion with them to be the only ones going to heaven?

    Our brand, Andrew? We have more than simply a “brand” or a “clear message to tell” and I think you are overemphasizing the una sancta over the fellowship of the Church visible by it’s outward marks which are, “the pure doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments in accordance with the Gospel of Jesus Christ” (Apology VII & VIII, 5). “In the end” it really does matter, since we can only find fellowship where the pure Gospel is being taught and the sacraments are rightly administered. It matters because people need to hear, repeatedly, justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ. “Lutheran” is not a mere “brand,” but signifies the pure, orthodox, teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

  15. Helen
    thanks for joining this conversation. It’s good to get back to the start of the thread in a way: the way that faith in Christ is passed onto young people seems to run hand in hand with the debate about style and substance in the church.
    You ask a great question but I wouldn’t persue your remedy for this situation:

    Helen :
    Why does a woman who has ignored his/her parental job for 12-14 years suddenly “want her son to be confirmed”? (Grandma or Grandpa has a bribe out?)I wouldn’t take that one on unless the parent attended every class and showed signs of progress in understanding what she was asking for. Otherwise, where is that kid going to be the Sunday after he’s confirmed? And what of those serious vows he makes before God?[Now someone will tell me that a kid can be exposed to what passes for Sunday School for six years in some places and not be much smarter. And I’d agree.]Back to the “mission for Lutheranism”!

    I shared this story because it’s not uncommon and experiences like this need to be shared as we debate how we ought to act as church. This family isn’t the only one I have met with similar stories. We have and will continue to welcome 2 to 5 families who were asked to leave other confirmation programs every year. We will welcome children who have minimal background in the church. The reasons:
    1. it’s not the a child’s fault that parents have failed them.
    2. there’s no better time to tell a person about the love of God revealed in Jesus than when they come to your door and ask to come in.
    Many of the kids I meet in this kind of situation come from anything but a traditional home. I can’t pretend otherwise and I can’t wait until it is either. If the parents are honest you’ll learn that their lives are more akin to the life of the woman at the well than they ever wanted. There are kids caught in custody disputes where the parent with weekend custody refuses to take the child to worship. There are kids who are basically raising themselves while their one sober parent is trying to make a living.
    Children who come like this ought not be penalized by adding additional hoops that their parents won’t leap through.
    thanks for joining such an honest conversation
    pax
    John

  16. @Jim Pierce #166
    I hit a nerve with the brand thing. Please forgive a moment of sarcasm, but there is a danger here. I had a conversation last night with an Orthodox friend, who thinks like some but not all Orthodox think, that people of other denominations might not be saved, including Lutherans. I was officially excommunicated for leaving the Orthodox church. I get a little testy when I hear or read comments that hint at any denomination claiming to be totally right or worse yet the only ones going to heaven. If we were totally right, we would not go through endless controversies and changes. I see no reason to deny a child the opportunity of confirmation. I am Lutheran because it does have a clear teaching of Word and Sacrament, Grace and Forgiveness, Law and Gospel. Should we withhold it because of a parent’s poor choice? I would hate to see us become card carrying members who do not welcome people in. I have read some statements that border on that. I do not endorse a wholesale, open doors, come to communion whenever you want to, and while you are at it dunk your head in the Baptismal font to be Baptized, and on your way out the door burn a copy of the Book of Concord and a hymnal type of Lutheranism.

    Should they be trained according to what we teach and hold to be true? OF COURSE! Should be deny them the opportunity to learn? NO! Are we denying the work of the Holy Spirit, by making it difficult for someone the hear the Word and learn about the Sacrament? Is Luther not right in his explanation to the third article of the creed? Doesn’t the Holy Spirit call us? Should we deny that?

    I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

  17. @Andrew Strickland #169

    Andrew, “Lutheranism” is not a denomination, but the LC-MS is a denomination. Can someone be saved who is not a Lutheran and who doesn’t belong to the LC-MS? Of course. However, is there any other group which gathers around “the pure doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments in accordance with the Gospel of Jesus Christ” other than Lutherans? That could be, but I am not familiar with them and if there was such a group, then they would rightly be described as Lutherans. 🙂

    I reacted as I did, because I see some Lutherans (not necessarily a denomination) who have fallen into unionism. We can’t identify the members of the invisible Church, only God knows who they are, but we can build fellowship around the visible marks of the Church which are known to us. Indeed, where do we find the Church? Where the marks of the Church are present.

    Thanks you for the dialogue. I will end posting in this thread here. I have spent far too much time here and need to get some work done! 😉

  18. @Andrew Strickland #162
    @Helen #161

    Looks as tho we’re back to the old “Lutheran” vs. “Christian” argument here. Permit a few quotes from “On Being a Christian” (pp. 10, 11) by Henry Hamaan, a fine theologian from the Lutheran Church in Australia. He is defending his statement, “I am a Lutheran because I am a Christian.” This in contradistinction to the statement, “It’s more important to be a Christian than to be a Lutheran.” Here goes:

    “The sentence, ‘I am a Lutheran because I am a Christian’ asserts (1) that the Christian faith is clearly revealed, (2) that it can be grasped and understood, (3) that it can be accurately stated, taught, and confessed, and (4) that this has been done in traditional Lutheranism. It is a further consequence of this conviction to hold that convinced members of other denominations would think exactly the same way about their view of the Christian message, and, thinking that way, would reject my views which are specifically Lutheran…
    The big enemy of the true Christian faith is compromise, toleration, the spirit that we all are right–as if the important thing is not to be Lutheran, but to be a Christian without any denominational confesson whatever.”

    “Those Christians who have their own personal commitment to the Christian faith will not misunderstand me when I say, “I am a Lutheran because I am a Christian.” They will know that my strong commitment to the Christian faith leads me to the Lutheran confession of it because I see in such confession the true and appropriate expression of that faith.”

    This is an excellent little book, and valuable addition to any library. A “10”. I hope this answers the questions about “Lutheran brand,” and “mission for Lutheranism,” at least in part.

    Johannes

  19. @Johannes #170
    Not Lutheran vs Christian, but worried that if taken to an extreme Lutheran and everyone else is going to hell. I have heard it quite recently. Other Christians may have some false doctrines but that does not make them unchristian. I saw a comment in another thread that said ELCA is not Christian. They do have false doctrine, but to say not Christian is a little heavy.

  20. The last time I looked, it is the LCMS’ position (2001 Convention) that the ELCA is no longer an orthodox Lutheran body. That’s as far as I’ll go.

    As far as taking things to extremes is concerned, that “game” can be played in any number of directions. I think Hamann’s statements are clear. I’ll have more clarification on this after dinner.

    johannes

  21. Andrew,
    I know those who have responded well, as well as one can in this medium. I’m curious, what do you, Andrew, personally, state & say, a “Christian” church is or how would you caution a new Believer against those that are not? Doctrine, does matter. It is not the foundation, but the blocks that bear the most weight, in any building.

    What do you say or discern it to be?

  22. @John, an Unlikely Pastor #167

    The original statement, I believe, was that this mother, who had never gotten her child to Sunday School, wanted him to be confirmed.
    “What does the child want?” is my question. (I threw in a ‘why’, too.)
    I said it because I have seen kids who didn’t want to be in confirmation, didn’t do anything while they were there and were out the door as soon as confirmation Sunday was over.
    I suppose you can hope that you have planted a seed but it looks to me like rocky ground. If you have done it before, God bless the work!

  23. @Johannes #172
    “As far as taking things to extremes is concerned, that “game” can be played in any number of directions.”

    I am not sure about what you mean by “game” I could have mentioned the other side of the religious aisle, but why bother here on this site. They play the same games. On one extreme you can eliminate a vast majority of people and call them unchristian. On the other hand one start excusing all manners of sin and be so inclusive that there is no right or wrong. I just urge caution to people on either side. Things can be taken too far.

    @Dutch #173
    As to what makes a Christian church, a good place where I would start would be the Introduction to An Explanation of the Small Catechism. pages 47-53 The brevity of it is an easy starting ground. The answers to questions one -three sum up Christianity pretty well with a few exceptions (the end of the answer the question three states the Bible is without error,which I believe, not all Christian churches-non orthodox hold to this., the rest make it distinctly Lutheran.

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