NDEs versus the Gospel

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19- 20)

light_at_the_end_of_tunnelThe Popular Appeal of NDE Accounts

The accounts of NDEs “Near Death Experiences” have become a mainstay of pop-Christian and non-Christian hope for some kind of life beyond death.

My first encounter with NDE stories came in the movie theater in 1978 with the Sunn Classic Pictures release of “Beyond and Back.” It made some mystical impressions on me in my youth. But the central issue was that none of the evidence this “documentary” provided was consistent with Scripture.

Today NDE accounts are big money. AmazonGoodreads, and many others publish lists of books they want to sell on the topic. And they do sell very well. Magazines, Tabloids, and newspapers willingly publish accounts of NDEs.

Last week an article came up on the topic at PJMedia by P. David Hornik titled What Near-Death Experiences Tell Us. The article reminded me why I so strongly reject these NDE accounts. The concluding words of the article may help the reader understand why clamoring after NDE accounts is so dangerous:

“[W]hile NDEs do not invalidate people’s religions, they do seem to invalidate harshly sectarian, exclusionary forms of religion. In today’s world, one particular religion keeps producing terrorism and systematic persecution of people of other creeds. The evidence from NDE research is clear: the road to heaven is open to all, and the deity does not exclusively favor any category of people. Perhaps, for the long term — centuries — these discoveries offer hope.”

The lies of NDEs are compelling — relying upon human sympathy and compassion; after all, how dare anyone question the visions or experiences of those who have “crossed over”? The outrage against questioning these visions is especially pronounced when the person who had the NDE is small, like Colton Burpo in “Heaven is for Real!

The books on NDE fill “Christian” bookstores because pop-Christianity sees these experiences to be of value to the Christian faith. [I know, I’ll probably get in trouble for putting that in quotation marks, but the point is that most of the stuff sold in most of these bookstores is only nominally Christian and essentially Pelagian.]

And these accounts are a mainstay for pop-Christian periodicals, like Guideposts (N.V. Peale’s magazine promoting the false “prosperity” gospel).

We come back to the quotation at the start of the article:

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19-20)

To this day I have not been able to find, nor has anyone shown me an account of a contemporary NDE which points only to God’s Grace in Jesus Christ given to us through Word and Sacrament. None of them, so far, have pointed exclusively to the Cross of Christ and His Means of Grace. This should be particularly noted of the “Christian” accounts. I’d gladly be corrected, shown such an example. But such an example would only prove the point that I’m setting out to make.

That is this: God directs us to rely only on what He has placed in His written Word: The Holy Scriptures. Any word from anywhere else must be viewed with the caution that understands that the devil, the world, and our own flesh seek to distract us from that Word of salvation through faith in Christ alone.

If the NDE is not perfectly in line with the teaching God has given us in His written Word, then the vision/experience of the NDE is not of God and has no value for our spiritual growth — except as an example of how people are deceived away from God’s Word.

The basic motivation for clinging to NDE accounts is lack of faith in what God explicitly states in Scripture. And that lack of faith is common to all who are stained by original sin. Myself included.

 My Own Experience

Part 1NDEs Supplant The Word of God

In January 2011, Shirley L., a member at one of my churches, asked me to review Todd Burpo’s account of the NDE experienced by his son, Colton. The book is Heaven is for Real!

I put it off; some real reasons: 10 children, 4 congregations, 40 shut-ins at the time, driving about 30,000 miles a year just for church work.

Some of my reasons were selfish: I no longer like schmaltzy pop Christian literature: self-help, testimonies, spiritual growth, or etc… It doesn’t take many books to see the patterns of the theology of glory, the minimizing of the means of grace, the focus on introspection and wrestling one’s conscience into a state of peace with God through one’s self-sacrificing spiritual struggle, the seductive distraction from relying only on God’s grace in Christ through Word and Sacrament to rely upon miracles, visions, and works. And I have read literally hundreds of these kinds of “Christian” books.

Shirley persisted. She gave me a copy of the book. She had a real concern. The concern was that so many people were buying, reading, and praising this book. It had become something of a phenomena in our area of NW Minnesota.

So on about June 15, 2011, I started it. I finished it the next evening. It was schmaltzy, and very moving. It had all the key ingredients of the NDE accounts from around the world and in every religion. But the little boy hadn’t really told his dad. He was too young. His dad kind of fished the story out of the little boy.  It was a feel-good story, but it didn’t focus on the Cross or the Word alone. And it denied the Means of Grace, denied that faith in Christ alone saves.  It confused many non-Scriptural issues with what God actually says in Scripture.

Friday morning, June 17, Alan V., a neighbor and member called, “Pastor, get over here to hofstadlindaGlenn’s. It’s Linda, she’s… she’s out in the field.”

She was.

Her car was about 100 feet out into the field, backwards, on it’s side, smashed, with a hole in the back window.

It looked like it was through that window that Linda was thrown another 60 feet.

Linda and her husband Glenn shared their wedding anniversary with my wife and me. September 30th. They had become good friends.

Her body was terribly broken. I’m no expert on the physical process of death. So when I brushed the dirt off her ear and the color returned to her ear, she might still have been alive.

I went to Glenn; Alan was there with him. I told them what I had found and that I was going to go back to Linda in case she was still alive–so that she wouldn’t be alone. Glenn was overwhelmed, he couldn’t go.

Alan had called the ambulance, but our neighborhood is so far away from any towns, that it takes time for the volunteers to get to the ambulance and then more time to get out to an accident.

It was during this time that Colton Burpo’s NDE story interfered with the truth. Because it was fresh in my mind, my thought was: “It will be alright, Linda. Colton was already there. He saw Jesus. We know it’s true.” Then: “Who the heck is Colton that Linda would trust his word?”

I’m not saying this was a clear logical foundational thought. It was the response of being overwhelmed by the emotions of this tragedy and having read that book just the previous day.

And I was astounded at my thoughts, shocked by this internal dialog.

And I was furious. Just a reading of this book had such an affect that in time of crisis Satan was using this NDE crap to distract me from the Cross and my duty toward Linda!

I prayed the Lord’s Prayer with Linda, I sang Lutheran hymns to her. I recited some Psalms. I recited John 1, Luke 2, Matthew 26-28, and anything else I could remember. I recited the Nicene Creed, and the sections on Baptism, and the Office of the Keys.

And then her family started to arrive–before the ambulance.

The Burpo NDE story still tried to push its way to the front as I watched her grown boys see their mom so broken, so destroyed.

The ambulance did arrive. Linda was apparently still breathing. At the hospital they tried with heroic efforts to save her.

But her body was too broken.

And Colton Burpo’s NDE is hollow, distracting from the Cross of Christ. His father is like the medium communicating beyond the grave. His vision/experience directs people to place their hope for salvation in the notion that this little boy in the hospital has a keener insight into the throne of God than do the Prophets and Apostles through whom God gave us His Scripture.

That day I thanked God that Shirley had insisted I read that book to know and appreciate the danger of how strong the deception of accounts like that of Colton Burpo really are. These NDEs are in direct violation of Isaiah 8:19-20

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19- 20)

I know that my friend and member of my parish is now in Abraham’s bosom. I know this not because a Wesleyan pastor faced tragedy in almost losing his son and fished a NDE story out of him with leading questions. I know this because of the faith God gave to Linda through the Word and Sacrament. A faith which humbly confessed her own utter inability to save herself and confessed her total reliance upon Christ’s life, sufferings, death, and resurrection for her. She was dressed in Christ’s righteousness by God’s washing of regeneration, Holy Baptism. And God is good on His promise.

Part 2: NDEs Encourage Doubt About God’s Good Will

Every family and every parish has certain years that are particularly difficult. 2011 was a hard year for us.

oi721691555_bernie-jacob-newspaper-photo1My son, Matthew’s best friend, Jake, died Monday, November 7, 2011. He was 17 years old.

When we came here in 2001 we learned about Jake’s heart condition. Through the years we had seen many close calls. And we knew that if there were no really new medical technology available, Jake probably would go home to heaven by the time he out grew his 2 chambered heart.

Every day with Jake was an wonderful bonus. Given his congenital heart defect he would have passed away as a small baby in previous generations. And in His providential grace God granted that Jacob lived more than 17 years with us.

Even when we long expect the day, even while we appreciate the gift of life, death still cuts us to the core and hurts.

Given the unusual circumstances and seemingly miraculous nature of Jake’s life it might seem odd to those not close to him that it hurts so much that he is gone. For those who think this way I direct you to John 11, particularly verse 35, to gain an appreciation for how much death really affects us.

The Burpo NDE book had different but very negative affect upon Jake’s girlfriend and some of Jake’s family. Here’s the problem.

If God was willing to give little Colton Burpo back to his family then why wouldn’t God be willing to do the same for Jake? There’s nothing really specially important about what Colton said (or, rather, “his father wrote”). There was no new special message from God. In fact the only thing that seemed special about it was that Colton got to see dead people and sit on Jesus’ lap. It didn’t seem to matter what people believed about Jesus. Just that they be loving.

Jake loved God. Jake was a wonderful young Christian man. So why not him like Colton?

Now, of course this is grief of the flesh being torn.

But the point here is that this NDE account was a real threat and distraction from the Gospel of Christ. Because it is vague and there is no particular Scriptural reason given for it the NDE account implies that God is capricious. I’m not attributing this motivation to Colton or his father. I’m pointing out that the very fact of a NDE account that denies parts of Scripture undermines confidence in the good and gracious will of God.

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19-20)

NDEs Are Modern Day Mediums

There are some very important things to learn from the Biblical accounts of people who were raised from the dead.

Here’s the list:

  1. Elijah brings back the son of Zarephath’s widow: 1 Kings 17:1ff
    The purpose of the miracle: 
    Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lordin your mouth is the truth.”
  2. Elisha brings back the son of the great Shunammite woman: 2 Kings 4:1ff.
    The purpose of the miracle:
    According to verses 16, and 28ff the purpose is that the Word of God be established as truth when Elisha speaks it.
  3. A dead man comes back to life when he touches Elisha’s bones: 2 Kings 13:21.
    The purpose of the miracle:
    Validating that this man was a prophet who spoke God’s Word. Elisha died shortly after speaking about events that would take place later for Joash. The revivification of this man served as a reminder that Elisha’s word would still come true because it is God’s Word.
  4. Jesus brings back the widow’s son at Nain: Luke 7:13-15.
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  5. Jesus brings back Jairus’ daughter from the dead: Matthew 9:25.
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  6. Jesus brings back Lazarus from the dead: John 11:1ff
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
    41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”
  7. Many saints brought back at Jesus’ death: Matthew 27:1ff
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
    50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
    51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
    54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
  8. Christ’s resurrection: John 20:1ff
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
    30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
  9. Peter brings back a female disciple named Tabitha (Dorcas) from the dead: Acts 9:36-42
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To show that Peter is speaking the Word of the Lord.
    Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive. 42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord.
  10. Paul brings back Eutychus from the dead: Acts 20:9-12
    The purpose of the miracle:
    To validate Paul’s Preaching as the Word of the Lord.

The first common factor of these accounts is that God’s written Word does not record what (if anything) these people remembered or spoke about what they saw in heaven.

The second common factor of these accounts is that all of them were done either to demonstrate that the prophet/apostle preaching was actually preaching God’s Word, or to demonstrate the person and nature of Christ as the fulfillment of God’s written Word.

There is one place where we find the dead in heaven speaking. It is when Jesus relates the events of Lazarus’ death and going to the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:19-31).
That account ends with these words:

30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Scripture shows what a danger these NDE accounts are. Scripture itself places them in the category of mediums and those who consult with the dead. Rather, the living should rely on Moses and the Prophets, that is on the written Word of God.

Experience shows that these NDE accounts disrupt and usurp the authority of Scripture, supplant the Gospel and tend to introduce all kinds of enthusiasm.

So when someone comes up with the next most best NDE story, share with them the story of a Real Death Experience: the Real Death and Resurrection of Christ.

That is the only Death and Resurrection account that provides the sure foundation for our salvation.

About Pastor Joseph Abrahamson

Pastor Joseph Abrahamson serves Faith Ev. Lutheran Church, Clara City, Minnesota (E.L.S.). He and his wife, Mary, have 10 children. Pastor Abrahamson is a graduate of Bethany Lutheran Theological Seminary, and of the University of Wisconsin-Madison's Department of Hebrew and Semitic Studies. He has served on the Faculty/Staff at Bethany Lutheran College teaching Religion, Linguistics, Archaeology, and Self-Defense; and was on Staff at the University of Wisconsin as an Information Processing Consultant (Computer Geek) while doing graduate work in Semitics. Pastor Abrahamson served Clearwater Lutheran Parish (ELS) from 2001 to April 2015.


NDEs versus the Gospel — 12 Comments

  1. Thanks for the excellent article.

    Jesus takes away our need to fill in the blanks with the stories of near death experiences. He brings His death and resurrection to us in our Baptism. Our old Adam really does die every day–thanks be to God–that we may walk in newness of life. (rom. 6:4) And, St. Paul also writes to the Galatians and to us that we no longer live but Christ lives in us. (Gal. 2:20) And, often as we eat and drink the body and blood of our Lord we proclaim His death until He comes. (1 Cor. 11:26)

    Jesus’ death is what counts, not our speculations.

  2. Great article. I’ve seen how quickly mediums can decatechize Christians.

    At the end of the day, Near Death Experiences are trumped by Actual Death Experiences. We worship a man who died all the way and came back–a man who also does the same for others. He’s a better authority on the subject than speculation about the vague impressions and blurry visions of NDE accounts.

  3. Good work! I actually had to do a youth thing on this book since everyone in North Dakota was reading it to. I wish I had this then. Boy you put a lot of what I was saying and feeling into such a great organized and succint article. I am going to send it to my own mother who thinks there is nothing wrong with the Burpo book. Again great read.

  4. A point was made by a pastor at a Bible study once about NDEs: how does that person verifiably know that their soul left their body? It’s not unusual for people who are seriously ill or on drugs to imagine or hallucinate things that seem very much real. He used the illustration too that people who have died from freezing have (just before death) actually removed external clothing layers claiming that it’s far too warm.

    The point laid out that we cannot use our experience to shape our theology is as true as ever. It’s true of Pentecostalism, it’s true of altar call/decision theology, and it’s true here.

    Great read.

  5. @J. Dean #3

    Often, people who claim to have near death experiences get put on a pedestal by frolks like Oprah or George Noory, etc. Part of the cure for people’s mental and emotional condition (which would make them hallucinate NDE’s) is answering their need for care with the once-fo-all hope Christ gives us in His own resurrection through His baptizing us into His finished wor. cf. Heb. 9:26-27, Col. 3:11-3:4, 1 Peter 1:3-9, etc. These passages steer us from imagining bright scenes and shimering visions when really sick or mentally confused.

    Yet, caregivers of infirmed and distraut persons have the joy of simply speaking the Word which tells of God’s sufficient grace. (2 Cor. 12:7-1) NOwhere does Paul say his experience is to be normative. In fact, it won’t. Rahter, he points to Christ whose death and resurrection fills our hearts and minds with hope–whether we give care to peole undergoing mental illness, shock, drug overdoes, Altheimer’s; or we ourselves are experiencing some emotional/mental trauma.

  6. The Bible tells us that Satan can counterfeit God’s works. He can fake out people to convince them they are on the right track, or that all paths lead to a wonderful ending. The LCMS needs to confront false doctrine in the public realm and not just preach to the choir in church or on BJS. (Just a suggestion)

    I’ve seen a couple of movies (fictional of course) that have taken the idea of the “light” a little further. In other words the person didn’t wake up–but died and continued to the wonderful light only to find that it wasn’t so wonderful after all.

  7. While I do agree with the idea of promoting the theology of the cross, it seems there are two flaws in your reasoning. 1) What makes you believe Satan made you think the way you did? Rather than you just made a mistake at a time of crisis like Peter, and exposing your own human frailty, and further exposing your need for Christ. 2) I found it somewhat insulting to say there is only one example of a NDE in the bible, as it diminished the value of what was shared. There are MANY MANY examples of things happening only once. Just because Satan tempted Christ in the desert, doesn’t mean Satan didn’t tempt Him many more times. The prodigal son, is a perfect example that can be applied to many other people. Again, I hold the same view as you that we should look at NDEs with extreme caution. But that doesn’t mean they haven’t happened and may not happen again.

  8. @NL #9
    It is hard to decide the most charitable way to read this comment. Was the person writing it was having a bad day reading with comprehension, or was the writer is intending to mischaracterize aspects of the article? It is possible that NL is going through some great personal grief that clouds judgment and that this is a sensitive topic. It is also possible that NL is young and/or inexperienced with reading. These assumptions would make this response an attempt to walk through a minefield where my purpose is to help correct the misreadings of the article, and if possible to help NL.

    I have no idea who NL is and could not contact him for clarification via email because the email address he or she left was invalid.

    From the terms on the bottom of the comment page just below ” we do require a valid email address so the admins can verify who you are.” NL’s choice to give false contact information is either deliberate or careless dishonesty. Perhaps NL read the terms with the same care as the article.

    But let me address some issues:

    Flaws in my reasoning: I’m sure there are many. I have no problem with people pointing out flaws in my reasoning. I welcome it. But it would help if the criticisms were based on what I actually wrote rather than what NL imagined I wrote.

    Could it have been my “own human frailty”, etc. What makes me “believe Satan made [me] think the way [I] did?”

    NL, I did point out my own frailty and sin and confusion and emotion as partial motivation. The words in the article read:

    “I’m not saying this was a clear logical foundational thought. It was the response of being overwhelmed by the emotions of this tragedy and having read that book just the previous day.

    And I was astounded at my thoughts, shocked by this internal dialog.

    And I was furious. Just a reading of this book had such an affect that in time of crisis Satan was using this NDE crap to distract me from the Cross and my duty toward Linda!”

    Your observations about my reasoning neglect the context. It is a curious claim you make about agreeing “with the idea of promoting the theology of the cross” and seem to take exception to the idea that Satan would be strongly involved in distracting a pastor from care for souls. Perhaps you did not mean your point in this way. Perhaps even with the context you think I should point out my own culpability more strongly. That’s fine. I have no problem with admitting the fact that I sinned and it was my corrupt flesh that was tempting me. But your point seems to reject clear Scripture about Satan’s involvement along with the world and our flesh as God’s Word states: for example: 1 Pet. 5:8-9

    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

    I’m assuming you mean Peter’s failure with regard to circumcision in Antioch. If that is the case, Peter’s actions were not “just a mistake” due to his “frailty” as you term it. Peter sinned against the Word of God. This is a second aspect of your first criticism of my reasoning. You seem to minimize sin as just mistakes and human frailty. It’s too bad you left me unable to contact you, I would like to have clarified this prior to responding. The point of the article in context is how appealing these NDE accounts are to our sinful natures and how easily our flesh and Satan can use them to supplant the Word of God. It’s not just a mistake in a time of crisis, it is damnable sin and unbelief to look anywhere else than the Cross of Christ for the hope of salvation.

    On to the second flaw you mention:

    Your choice of the word “insulting” doesn’t make any sense here. It is a provocative word, but it lends nothing to your argument or explanation that might help me understand what flaw you intended to point out. So, I’ll set addressing the use of that word aside for a bit.

    Your problem with my reasoning as you wrote it was that I said ” there is only one example of a NDE in the bible.” This is either lack of attention in your reading or a deliberate mischaractarization. I never said there were any NDEs in the Bible. I listed the 10 accounts of people who were really and truly brought back from the dead. And I pointed out the the explicit purpose for those raisings from context of Scripture. And I pointed out that God deemed that whatever–if anything–they might have experienced while dead would not make it into His Word.

    Then I listed one example recorded for us of the dead speaking about coming back. And that particular example teaches very clearly that even if someone does come back from the dead we should listen only to what is in the Written Word of God for our salvation.

    You made a third claim about my reasoning which you didn’t number. Your closing words implied that I was claiming that NDEs “haven’t happened and may not happen again.” I think you made this assumption based on your misreading of my one example of the dead speaking about coming back. This is puzzling to me because the whole article is based on the fact that we have an historical and cultural phenomenon of NDEs. I was not denying that this type of event happens. The article points out that these events supplant the Gospel of Christ and are dangerous. Looking at “NDEs with extreme caution” is not enough.

    3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. (I Cor. 10)

    Now to address your use of the term “insulting.” I have shown that your criticism of my reasoning was based on your misreading, not on what I had actually written. Your view is that what I wrote “diminished the value of what was shared.” Again, it is regretful that you made it impossible to contact you, because it would be helpful clarify what you meant. What I think you meant–and if I’m going off in the wrong direction, please forgive me–what I think you meant was that my article is insulting because it made what Abraham said to the Rich man of less value, somehow diminished. If that is what you meant then you have misunderstood not only what I wrote, but you have also misunderstood the import of Abraham’s words:

    ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

    A different possibility is that what you meant is that my article is insulting because it diminishes the value of the accounts of those who have experienced NDEs. If that is the case, You’re right. That was my intent. But not because I want to insult you or anyone else. I want you and others to be freed from bondage to these deceptive spirits and mediums that come to us and bind us with a hope that is not the true Gospel of Christ. And if you are going through a difficult time where these NDE accounts have become of such value to you, then it is my hope that you will turn away from them to the pure font of truth, the Word of God.

  9. This is very well written, and I largely agree. I think there is some value in discussing them, though. The problem with NDE’s isn’t their existence, but their use. While “proving heaven” isn’t a good use of NDE’s, they do carry a certain metaphysical utility. Namely, they are an affront to metaphysical naturalism, and give support to the existence of a sentient soul.
    Thanks for the article on Easter, too.

  10. This is an example of a close minded Christian. God can do whatever he pleases… if he chooses to reach people without Jesus influence to be better people and change their lives, that’s beyond our human understanding. So stop trying to knock things because they don’t fall under your belief. Really ignorant.

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