Capitalism & Heresy – 500 Bucks gets you a Seat at the Women’s Ordination Conference, by Pr. Rossow

How would you like to join others in the LCMS for a conference geared toward developing an overture for  the 2013 LCMS convention to ordain women? It will only cost you $500 to attend! But wait, there’s more. The conference is out on the central great plains, in Norman, Oklahoma in the dead of winter. Could it get any better than that?

Yes, it can. The conference is being held at the US Postal Service’s National Center for Employee Development. I bet they have a really nice pool! But we’re not done yet. I’m sorry, there’s no ginsu knife added in (although at this point I am glad I don’t have one in my hand – I fear what I might do with it to rescue me from this pain) but there is a special add-on package for your spouse OR YOUR COMPANION for a mere $249. (Yes, I did say “your companion.”) I thought the people who ran these kind of things were socialists but it turns out they make the people at Bain Capital and Haliburton Inc. look like amateur capitalists.

I am not making this up. Click here for verification of this tantalizing deal by which you can join in all the fun of truly transforming the LCMS.

Here is the actual description of the event:

Conversations 2013 is the place where people who care about the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod will gather to begin conversations about the ordination of women in the LCMS.

Our purpose is to foster open conversation about the Holy Scriptures, and our understanding of God’s Word as it pertains to women and the Office of Holy Ministry.  We seek a truly open conversation where professional church workers can participate without the threat of church discipline or job loss looming over their heads.

Since when was the Scriptural requirement of doctrinal purity turned into a matter of jobs and employment. This is not a matter of job security. This is a matter of upholding the Word of truth.

Attendees at this conference, need to be asked if they uphold the Scriptural and synodical position on ordination. If they do not they need to be patiently shown Christ’s position on this. If they do not accept the Word of Christ then they have excluded themselves from fellowship with the orthodox church.

I’ve got a better idea. For $65 and the cost of hotel room for the night you can come to Naperville in February for the BJS conference and get a lot better food, some great parties and instead of holding discussion groups designed by Satan to undo the Word of Christ, we will give you speakers who will build you up in His Word!

Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord…



About Pastor Tim Rossow

Rev. Dr. Timothy Rossow is the Director of Development for Lutherans in Africa. He served Bethany Lutheran Church in Naperville, IL as the Sr. Pastor for 22 years (1994-2016) and was Sr. Pastor of Emmanuel Lutheran in Dearborn, MI prior to that. He is the founder of Brothers of John the Steadfast but handed off the Sr. Editor position to Rev. Joshua Scheer in 2015. He currently resides in Ocean Shores WA with his wife Phyllis. He regularly teaches in Africa. He also paints watercolors, reads philosophy and golfs. He is currently represented in two art galleries in the Pacific Northwest. His M Div is from Concordia, St. Louis and he has an MA in philosophy from St. Louis University and a D Min from Concordia, Fort Wayne.


Capitalism & Heresy – 500 Bucks gets you a Seat at the Women’s Ordination Conference, by Pr. Rossow — 128 Comments

  1. You know, I Timothy 2:12-14 should put an end to this argument once and for all. If we truly believe, preach, and teach the Bible’s authority, this shouldn’t even be an issue. The only way it does become an issue is when we view the Bible as something other than what it really is.

  2. @Matthew Mills #50

    > “I by virtue of a two thirds majority vote of the church council … announce the grace of God unto all of you”

    This is a twisting of the intent, design and function of traditional MO voter assemblies.

  3. Just so everybody is clear, Jesus is not referring to the voters assembly when he says in Matthew 18 “tell it to the church.” LSB follows Jesus and recommends the announcement of excommunication be at the Divine Service, not the voters assembly.

  4. @mbw #49

    “Scott Dart, heretic and false Lutheran, has had his fifteen minutes of fame. That’s all it has been about. Sick!

    I don’t know who you are, “mbw”, but this is certainly NOT about my fifteen minutes of fame. Which way do you guys want it? Before I posted my comment, you all were griping and complaining about how the organizers of this conference weren’t making themselves known. You (the folks who frequent this web site) were making assumptions and accusations of who you THOUGHT was behind it.

    *I* am a heretic and a false Lutheran? I am utterly amazed at your indignance and your arrogance. You all asked me, when you thought I was a pastor, who my bishop was. Then, when you realized I wasn’t, you asked who my pastor was. Why? So you can write him and urgently tell him how badly I need to be disciplined?

    And all of you, you brood of vipers! Look at the original article that was written here. Is that the tone of voice of someone that is truly interested in getting me to “repent” of my “sin”? I don’t think so. Making jokes and hurling insults is certainly not the way I learned to win friends and influence people.

    You sit there in all your smugness, certain that the rest of the world is going to hell in a handbasket. While you sit in your ivory towers spewing forth judgment on all that’s wrong with everyone who doesn’t see eye-to-eye with you, we heretics and false Lutherans are more concerned with proclaiming God’s grace, mercy, and salvation to the people in our backyard who need so desperately to hear it.

    Finally, even IF your claims against me were legitimate, I’m pretty certain there isn’t anything in Scripture or any of the confessions that allows the lot of you to behave like ASSES in the way you berate those whom you judge. Who are YOUR bishops? And why haven’t they called you out on your most un-Christlike behavior? The end does NOT justify the means.

    This is my final post here. I’m well aware that you all will have the last word, and no doubt you will continue to villify me. I would just point out that nearly 500 years ago, there was another who was judged, berated, and vilified by the smug asses of the church hierarchy. History judged him rather kindly.

    May God open your hardened hearts.

  5. @Scott Dart #5

    Scott, what about the conversation? I asked you some polite questions and didn’t call you names.

    I think this last post is sort of an extended ad hominem. So, if some are vipers, does that make them wrong? If a viper complains, is he wrong because he is a viper? I just don’t follow the logic. Even if the posters here were not nice, that doesn’t mean that your position is correct or that your actions are good or helpful.

  6. Scott,

    I hope you will continue to post here and continue with the discussion.

    I challenge two of your points of comparison.

    1) You compare yourself to Luther. To make this work the point of comparison would need to be courage. I guess you have that in common with Luther but that is not what makes Luther tick for us. Luther is not about courage, although we do admire it. Luther is about standing up for the truth of God’s word. You are not standing up for the truth of God’s word but are bending it to match cultural winds.

    2) You call us a brood of vipers. Say what you will about this gang but they are not a brood of vipers. Jesus was referring to the self-righteous pharisees. This gang is not self-righteous. This is the group that defends things like confessing in the divine service that we are “poor, miserable, sinners.” We defend those things because we know that we are nothing by spiritual pond scum. Please do not mistake our zeal for pure doctrine as self righteousness.

    BTW – MBW is right. You are a heretic. You are a heretic because you are promoting a position that is contrary to Scripture. We love you and want you to repent of this false teaching. That does not make us a brood of vipers.

  7. @mbw #3
    The keys were given together. If the binding key is a 2/3s vote, than perhaps the loosing key should follow the same pattern. I don’t think so of course. I think they were put into the hands of the Pastors.

  8. @Scott Dart #5
    The victim card never gets old, does it? Find the more poorly worded insult and then use it to blanket accuse the rest of us of far worse. What happened to your own “Christ-like” demeanor? You have returned greater insult than given. And you’re playing a bogus “you hurt my feelings, therefore you are wrong” emotional game trying to justify yourself rather than defend your ideas. I am calling you names, and I dare you to answer me. You, sir, are a liar. You have not answered to any of our questions, preferring to hide behind the indignation of being insulted, because you cannot answer our objections. I gave you several, and if you expect anybody to take seriously your work of “reaching your neighbor for Christ” (which apparently we are completely uninterested since we think right doctrine is a part of that equation), then you have to defend your ideas in the court of public opinion. Are you gonna cry, or put on your big boy pants and take a seat at the table for this “conversation” you’re trying so hard to have? What have you to say for your teaching and practice besides “my feelings are hurt?”

    Prove me wrong. Please? If you want to have a conversation, you have to respond to honest inquiry with honest answer, not emotional temper-tantrums.

    Let’s count the insults: indignant, arrogance, brood of vipers, smug, judgmental, unconcerned with proclaiming God’s grace and mercy, berating ASSES, and vilifiers. You really have outdone us collectively in a single comment! Time to take your ball and go home now?

    And seriously, are Bishops supposed to guard the teaching of the church or be the “nice police?” There’s a man who lived 2000 years ago who would fail the test of politeness you demand we pass.

  9. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:9)

    This means everybody including me

  10. “Our purpose is to foster open conversation about the Holy Scriptures, and our understanding of God’s Word as it pertains to women and the Office of Holy Ministry. We seek a truly open conversation where professional church workers can participate without the threat of church discipline or job loss looming over their heads.”

    I’m late to this thread, but I to wonder if the ELCA hierarchy or any denomination that ordains women would welcome such propoal from a group that wanted to discuss un-ordaining women out of the holy ministry, and discontinuing the process. Ya think? My guess is that the answer would be, “It’s a done deal, and not open for consideration. End of discussion.” There would be no “open conversation,” and as for church discipline, well I think we know how that would turn out. Look at Sweden.

  11. @Pastor Tim Rossow #7
    In order to be a heretic, don’t you have to hold to a damning err? I’m not sure what the totem pole of deviance from truth looks like, but is there a difference between heresy and heterodoxy? What would we call a confessional Presbyterian who agrees with us on the creeds and the truth of Scripture, yet interprets it in ways we would certainly deem incorrect? I mean, a Methodist and a Mormon are both wrong, but they’re wrong on two totally different levels. I’m wondering if we have a vocabulary for distinguishing this.

  12. Miguel,

    I get confused about it too. A heretic get excommunicated thus making them an unbeliever. The heterodox would get excommunicated too from an LCMS church. Does that make them an unbeliver?

    I am really not sure. mbw and I may have been using “heretic” too loosely.

  13. The Christian Cyclopedia defines “heterodoxy” as “Teachings or beliefs differing from a position held to be orthodox.” (like defining “wrong teachings” as those that are not “right teachings”)

    The Christian Cyclopedia defines “heresy” in a more complex way.

  14. Joe Strieter :…wonder if the ELCA hierarchy or any denomination that ordains women would welcome such propoal from a group that wanted to discuss un-ordaining women out of the holy ministry, and discontinuing the process. Ya think?

    (worth repeating)

  15. @Pastor Tim Rossow #13
    A heretic get excommunicated thus making them an unbeliever.

    Isn’t it “A person demonstrates unbelief/heresy and for that reason is excommunicated.” ?

    [Or, shouldn’t it be? I realize that it’s not working that way currently. When did heterodoxy last face excommunication in the LCMS?] You are more likely to be driven out for being a conservative/confessional Lutheran!

  16. What is BJS started a collection to send people to this conference to voice the truth? (I will donate $10) If no one shows up who might actually disagree with the group, then they will just pad each other on the back.

  17. We already know there won’t be a pool, I shudder to think about how they would spend the $500.00, and there probably won’t be any beer either. If we had an LC-MS dispute resolution process that made the de-frocking of obvious heterodox teachers a straight-forward, reasonable process, it might be worth it, but as things stand I can think of a lot more reasonable things to do w/ $500.00 and a free weekend.

  18. John Rixe :@Thomas #19
    I’ll donate $10 if “Carl Vehse” agrees to go and brings up repealing the 19th amendment.

    I don’t think it’s possible to separate that amendment from the feminist, secularist tide that swept it in. When the genders are equal, there’s no protection for the weaker one. I know some really strong, smart, informed ladies who would trade it for a culture where men were men.

  19. @Miguel #21 Yes. The idea could is just to show up and ask questions. They want a “conversation”, then give them a “conversation”. I might just be naive, but maybe one at least could convince them of where their position logically would lead to.

  20. When you hear (or read) the term “Conversation,” beware! Based on my reading of “conversation” it may mean, “You talk all you want, but we’re going to do what we want, anyways.” Or it may mean, “We’re going to talk about it, then jam it down your throats.” Or it may mean, “Today we talk, tomorrow, we act, then–no more talking. Done deal.”

    I’m sure there’s a few more definitions out there. But it makes me uneasy.

    Beware the “conversation!”

  21. @Joe Strieter #27
    Beware the “conversation!”

    Especially beware the “conversation” not grounded in Scripture and the Confessions!
    We should be saying, with Luther, “You have a different spirit.” and separate.
    This nonsense has gone on long enough.

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