So this Church-Growther and this Liturgomaniac Walk into a Bar…; Micro Koinonia Project Coming to BJS, by Pr. Rossow

So this Church –Growther and this Liturgomaniac walk into a bar… Well, it isn’t quite like that but it is close. It’s not a joke, it’s not a bar and it’s not really a church-growther and a liturgomaniac but it is about a pastor who espouses many church growth principles and a pastor who espouses the liturgy sitting down to talk to see how far apart they are and how close they can get, and doing it all for the world to see here on BJS.

One of my friends and colleagues is Pastor Mark Schulz from Trinity Lutheran Church in Lisle, Illinois, the next suburb over from me and my church, Bethany Lutheran in Naperville, Illinois. He and I have been in the same circuit for over ten years, had coffee together through the years, given each other grief about how we “do” church and also shared some life experience together. I had the pleasure of teaching religion/confirmation to his son Christian for two years at our day school here at Bethany.

We had lunch together today and agreed to have an online discussion about our similarities and differences and invite the BJS crowd to chime in via the comment section.

We will start out with each of us giving a summary view of what goes on in our churches and the principles that we use to guide those activities. Then in consequent postings we will critique each other’s practice and principles. We are not sure where it is headed or how long it will go on but we are both really enthused about having it out on line here and seeing where out little Micro-Koinonia Project ends up. We hope and pray it will be a blessing for our beloved Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.

About Pastor Tim Rossow

Rev. Dr. Timothy Rossow is the Director of Development for Lutherans in Africa. He served Bethany Lutheran Church in Naperville, IL as the Sr. Pastor for 22 years (1994-2016) and was Sr. Pastor of Emmanuel Lutheran in Dearborn, MI prior to that. He is the founder of Brothers of John the Steadfast but handed off the Sr. Editor position to Rev. Joshua Scheer in 2015. He currently resides in Ocean Shores WA with his wife Phyllis. He regularly teaches in Africa. He also paints watercolors, reads philosophy and golfs. He is currently represented in two art galleries in the Pacific Northwest. His M Div is from Concordia, St. Louis and he has an MA in philosophy from St. Louis University and a D Min from Concordia, Fort Wayne.

Comments

So this Church-Growther and this Liturgomaniac Walk into a Bar…; Micro Koinonia Project Coming to BJS, by Pr. Rossow — 242 Comments

  1. “We need to be engaging our communities with acts of service and mercy.”

    What does this mean in our current context where pretty much everyone has all of their physical needs met?

    Does this mean mercifully serving their other needs like social, emotional and spiritual?

  2. @Mark Louderback #99

    The question is “Why don’t they want pastors to wear vestments?” I think it’s partly because of a faulty understanding of the Office of the Holy Ministry. The “every member a minister” mentality. It was/is the Enthusiasts/Evangelicals (hint, hint) who do away with historic vestments.

  3. @Rev. McCall #92

    Would you include James Gier in the 15% fringe? It doesn’t look to me like he would allow CG CW…

    @James Gier #40

    “To say that a Lutheran pastor can adopt the same (CW) and then teach otherwise is simply to say one thing and do another, in other words, to both divorce doctrine from its corresponding practice, and confuse Law and Gospel.
    “Such in the end will not be tolerated. Either one has to change or the other. And what can be found is that the preaching and teaching comes to be changed in order to accommodate the CW style and form. Thus, the “divisions” among us.”

    Jim, I am so sorry it took me all this time to discover your writings here. I have trouble finding time for all I like to do, so I was skimming this discussion and barely glancing at the longer posts. Now I see that taking the time to read yours is, as A&E likes to say, “Time well spent.” Thank you!

  4. @Rev. McCall #92

    I love the idea but have no computer skills at all.  If the 85% really desire unity under the Bible and are willing to work hard, I think it can be done in much less than 10 years.  Among layfolks we’re almost there already.    

    There doesn’t seem to be any interest in a broad consensus around BJS.   A new website would be great for communication and encouragement among those who actually want to make it happen.  I’m also hoping, however, that the Micro-Koinonia Brothers want to be in the 85%.  I’m sure grateful for their courage.

  5. @John Rixe #104

    “There doesn’t seem to be any interest in a broad consensus around BJS.”

    “Consensus” is just a fancy word that makes the most popular opinion (the consensus)seem more respectable. Christians (pastors and “layfolks” alike) don’t vote to establish Truth, but look to the Word to discover the Truth. We do want to allow differences of opinion in matters of indifference, but we must never compromise on the Word.

  6. @Ted Crandall #91

    I have been to a lot of contemporary services and they are typically very well done because there is an incredible focus on excellence in the music. Rehearsals are rigorous and many times the musicians are well trained and good to go. I remember a congregation where each week the extent of the worship planning was the pastor choosing his favorite hymns of the liturgical day putting them on a sticky note and sticking them to the music holder on the organ. All of this happened at about 7 am Sunday Morning. Needless to say the worship life contained the gospel, but I can’t even say that because the gospel was so masked by laziness and mediocrity. And using the word mediocrity is being generous.

  7. @Tim Klinkenbe #107

    “… a lot of contemporary services … are typically very well done because there is an incredible focus on excellence in the music. Rehearsals are rigorous and many times the musicians are well trained and good to go.”

    It is unrealistic for the small to average size parish to attain such standards. It is a recipe for frustration and burn out.

  8. @Ted Crandall #106

    Agreed

    “It is possible to unify 85% of the synod in doctrine, practice, and mission, I’m convinced.  No one group in the Synod has moral hegemony or superiority.  We are all pure sinners in need of pure grace.  Our fundamental problem is unbelief.  We do not believe the Word of God actually can and does unite us….

    “We must finally make the time and effort to finally come to a broad consensus on who we are and how we shall live and work together.”  – Pastor Harrison, It’s Time

  9. @John Rixe #110

    Re: “Our fundamental problem is unbelief.”

    Actually, according to the Confessions, “enthusiasm” is our fundamental problem. Considering that enthusiasm is the (mistaken) belief that the Holy Spirit works outside the means of grace and considering that the contemporary worship movement is driven largely by a desire for more emotion in worship, then we had better be extremely cautious and sensitive to the “why” and “what does this mean” of new worship forms.

    “In a word, enthusiasm inheres in Adam and his children from the beginning [from the first fall] to the end of the world, [its poison] having been implanted and infused into them by the old dragon, and is the origin, power [life], and strength of all heresy,…. 10] Therefore we ought and must constantly maintain this point, that God does not wish to deal with us otherwise than through the spoken Word and the Sacraments. 11] It is the devil himself whatsoever is extolled as Spirit without the Word and Sacraments.” – Smalcald Articles, Part III, Article VIII. Of Confession.

  10. @John Rixe #110

    Ah! I’m sorry, Mr. Rixe, for misunderstanding you. In the context of Pastor Harrison’s “It’s Time,” a broad consensus (85%?) means nearly all of us agree that in the LCMS a pastor will NOT offer his congregation on Christmas Day (a Sunday) only a joint service at a Presbyterian church. 🙂

  11. Ted Crandall :@John Rixe #104
    “There doesn’t seem to be any interest in a broad consensus around BJS.”
    “Consensus” is just a fancy word that makes the most popular opinion (the consensus)seem more respectable. Christians (pastors and “layfolks” alike) don’t vote to establish Truth, but look to the Word to discover the Truth. We do want to allow differences of opinion in matters of indifference, but we must never compromise on the Word.

    By the way, “Consensus” was the confessional/conservative Lutheran organization that was a sort of predecessor to BJS. It shut down about the same time BJS started up.

  12. @Tim Klinkenbe #115
    I’m just thinking practically. It’s hard enough getting a quality organist, who only needs to play one instrument (and when it is played well, I find a lot of the pro-praise band arguments fall apart or fade away). Can a congregation with an average of 80-100 worshipers each Sunday get a full praise band together week after week after week with the consistent quality that the consumer worshiper demands? Or are these bands hired to perform each week with salaries being paid from budgeted expenses? There is a lot riding on this because there is a mega church down the street doing it better.

  13. @Mrs. Hume #101

    Where do you live, Mrs Hume Shangri-La? 🙂

    But if everything is hunky-dory where you live, expand out a few miles and help people there.

    Does this mean mercifully serving their other needs like social, emotional and spiritual?

    Actually, I was specifically thinking about bodily needs. Food, clothing, shelter, etc.

  14. Rev. James Schulz :
    @Tim Klinkenbe #115
    I’m just thinking practically. It’s hard enough getting a quality organist, who only needs to play one instrument (and when it is played well, I find a lot of the pro-praise band arguments fall apart or fade away). Can a congregation with an average of 80-100 worshipers each Sunday get a full praise band together week after week after week with the consistent quality that the consumer worshiper demands? Or are these bands hired to perform each week with salaries being paid from budgeted expenses? There is a lot riding on this because there is a mega church down the street doing it better.

    Good morning James. Our WELS congregation is right in that range at an average attendance of 95 per week of 155 baptized members. We are blessed to have 3 organists and several very fine pianist. As far as I know, we have no way of putting together a praise band as we have no guitarist, etc… Our organists are members and do not receive payment and willingly offer their God given gifts of music for the congregation.

    I do not know all the details, but I know our son is attending LPS and every student is required to take 2 years of piano (abilities are taken into account) and they have courses in organ, which my son wants to take next year if it fits his schedule. I remember that the worker training college in New Ulm, Martin Luther College has over 100 students of 700 taking organ each semester.

    I have to believe that LCMS schools are also training many musicians to play organ to fill the needs in congregations across the land. Of course there is always gaps, but it would seem the organ continues to have a vital role in our schools and providing church music for congregations.

  15. @Rev. James Schulz #102

    Well, I don’t think that everyone is a minister and I don’t wear vestments. So, I think there might be another thought pattern on that.

    @Tim Klinkenbe #109

    I appreciate that, you my language is grammatically correct: you’re. 🙂

    Was that too mean? 😀

    @John Rixe #105

    Grumble…why must I be the one to take the pot-shots on this? I thought the other Mark was going to handle this?

    CoWo is generally defined by a service with a free-form liturgy, featuring a modern rock sound.

    How’s that?

    I would add: if I had a word to describe traditional liturgical worship it would be “reverence”. If I had a word to describe traditional contemporary worship it would be: “celebration”.

    I thought about putting “Christ-centered” but then figured that is redundant when referring to CoWo. 🙂

  16. @Mark Louderback #120

    Re: “Well, I don’t think that everyone is a minister and I don’t wear vestments. So, I think there might be another thought pattern on that.”

    What is the “thought pattern”? What is the Bible teaching you are trying to communicate by not wearing vestments?

  17. I was asked above what I think about liturgical worship. I’m sure I’ll get to this in future discussion with Pastor Rossow, but our congregation has two locations, one of which has three liturgical services every weekend. Attendance at that location is growing as fast as at our contemporary site. I love our liturgical worship.

    And to the person who said they had visited and we did not have confession and absolution in our contemporary service: they may have “missed” it because it was not done in the way they expected. I lead the congregation in a prayer of confession following the message, and absolution is proclaimed and received as a part of the Lord’s Supper that immediately follows this confession. I’ve been told by some confessional brother pastors here in the NID that there is historical president for this placement in the service. We have the Lord’s Supper every week at every service at both our sites, BTW.

  18. And also BTW – to those who say certain elements must be present for a service to be Lutheran – how come you leave the Lord’s Supper off that list? And I’ve been to services that contained all the usual suspects when it comes to elements in worship that would proclaim us Lutheran, and yet there was no proper distinction of Law and Gospel in the sermon. Was that service more Lutheran than one of ours that may not have had a creed, but in which sin and grace were clearly challenged and proclaimed?

  19. I would add: if I had a word to describe traditional liturgical worship it would be “reverence”. If I had a word to describe traditional contemporary worship it would be: “celebration”.

    Traditional Lutheran Liturgical Worship: vernacular, reverent, joyful, celebratory, deep, intellectual, catholic, timeless

  20. @Rev. James Schulz #122
    So what vestments are OK and what are not? This is often where people get too strict and allow no room for variation in adiaphora. I had a pastor one time insist that even when mowing the lawn a pastor should be wearing a clerical so that people passing by know he is a pastor. We at times automatically assume that there is only one way to show respect for the Office of Ministry when it comes to dress on Sunday morning. In America wearing a suit and tie symbolize professionalism and respect for ones occupation. Is that not conveyed to the American people in our pews on Sunday morning? “Hey this guy is professional, takes his calling and his job seriously, and dresses in a way that reflects that!”

  21. @Rev. McCall #126

    “So what vestments are OK and what are not?”

    For most people, bare minimum: black Geneva; over-the-top: mitre. There can be a wide variety of practice, but whatever the practice, it should reflect the official Confessions of what Lutheranism looks like and does in its worship services:

    “At the outset we must again make the preliminary statement that we do not abolish the Mass, but religiously maintain and defend it. For among us masses are celebrated every Lord’s Day and on the other festivals, in which the Sacrament is offered to those who wish to use it, after they have been examined and absolved. And the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things.” – Augsburg Confession, Apology; Article XXIV (XII): Of the Mass.

  22. Pastor Louderback #100,

    Wow, what a telling statement you make, Pastor. You said, “it is not the person who is relevant or not. It is for the individual, the service is relevant.”

    Exactly who is it, that deems a soul, relevant, under that definition you choose & use?

    That’s odd, as I was, am, & will be, to Him. I was so relevant, He came, He died, & rose, for me, not just the seeker, Pastor.

    You proved what I said, “I’m/me/Confessional Lutheran are only relevant, to, how did you put it in #100?

    “it is not the person who is relevant or not. It is for the individual, the service is relevant.”

    Don’t ya understand individual means person? Or just those that agree or understand you…personally. I don’t, won’t so,….I guess by you’re own standards, definitions, and your understanding of Doctrine, Practice, & the Solas & Confessions, I am still where I said those like me were…in no man’s land. Man’s, sir, not His.

  23. @Mark Louderback #118

    I can see how my question was misconstrued.

    There are, of course, people with some material needs not met by public assistance. Those are pretty easy to identify and we know how to do it, and have ministries in place that are doing it. What kind of pains me when we do it is that these folks often aren’t actually invited to join us in our congregations for other activities or Bible study etc.

    My question is about serving the other needs of people pertains to that vast majority of folks who don’t really need help with material needs but have social and emotional needs. They have been affected by things like divorce or drug use or other social problems that don’t leave them materially needy, but do leave them disaffected, spiritually wounded, etc.

  24. @Mark Schulz #123

    We have the Lord’s Supper every week at every service at both our sites, BTW.

    How do you make it clear that you have closed communion?

    If someone who had been going to maybe a non denom church in another state moved to your area, met some of your friendly parishioners who invited him to come to your church sometime. He shows up with his family, doesn’t happen to see the people who invited him, how does he know that communion is closed?

  25. @Rev. James Schulz #127
    So we’re sticklers on the vestment part but ignore the parts about celebration of the Mass EVERY Lord’s Day (or even calling it “Mass” for that matter!), celebrating the Mass on other festival days, using the same series of lessons, the same prayers, and other things? Sounds like we’re picking and choosing here what to be sticklers on and what we give slack on. Or maybe we use these adiaphora as best and faithfully we can and are able, given the unique circumstances at the congregations to which we are called.

  26. @Rev. McCall #131

    You asked about vestments. At my church we do celebrate Holy Communion every Sunday and Festivals and although not mentioned in that quote, I also offer Private Absolution on Saturdays from 9a-12n or by appointment because to be a Confessional Lutheran means (among many things): “Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches” – Augsburg Confession, Article XI.

    As I said there is room for a wide variety in the details of being a liturgical church, but those are some of the distinguishing characteristics. A Sunday morning gown-less, wandering and/or bar stool sitting preacher reflects the philosophy of ministry of the Enthusiasts who reject the Means of Grace as the delivery systems of God’s forgiveness in Christ.

  27. @Rev. James Schulz #132
    Well now in fairness, we were talking about vestments, so lets not jump to include wandering from the pulpit or using bar stools or even rejecting the means of grace. So if a pastor wears a very nice suit and tie and preaches from the pulpit (while standing) and teaches and preaches the means of grace then what?
    Also, you used a quote from the confessions to support the vestment argument, but you can’t ignore what else is said in the same sentence and stressed as equally important. It is fair to ask if you exhort others just as strongly about private confession and absolution and celebrating the Mass every Lord’s Day and properly calling it “Mass”, and using the same one-year lectionary, and using the same prayers on Sunday, as you do the issue of vestments. If every church and brother in Christ does not have to celebrate the Mass as often as you do, or offer private confession and absolution as you do, or use the same one-year lectionary as you do, then why do they have to adhere to the same dress code as you do? Within your own supporting quote from the confessions they all seem to be just as important.
    We should be careful in our eagerness to set up measuring sticks to determine who is and who isn’t confessional because in doing so we should realize just how woefully short we ourselves fall at times.

  28. @Dutch #128

    Exactly who is it, that deems a soul, relevant, under that definition you choose & use?

    I’m sorry I thought I was clear: an individual is not “relevant” or not. What they say or do may be “relevant”.

    As to who deems it “relevant” that would be the audience that you are looking at. There plenty of things relevant for some that are not relevant for others.

    I don’t care about peanuts. At our local yogurt place they had a sign about how something could have peanuts. Or maybe it was dunkin donuts. I’m not allergic, so I don’t pay attention. It is not relevant to me.

    If I were allergic, or my child was, that would be another story. Then whether they had peanuts would be relevant.

    But it is not as though dunkin donuts or yogurt is relevant or not — it is the information they are passing on.

    @Old Time St. John’s #125

    That is more than one word. 🙂

    @Mrs. Hume #129

    Those are pretty easy to identify and we know how to do it, and have ministries in place that are doing it. What kind of pains me when we do it is that these folks often aren’t actually invited to join us in our congregations for other activities or Bible study etc.

    Well, maybe having a specific event in mind to invite them to — so, you are doing this activity and then you are inviting them to that event at the church. Being intentional about it.

    My question is about serving the other needs of people pertains to that vast majority of folks who don’t really need help with material needs but have social and emotional needs.

    I roughly categorize that as a bodily need — though I understand the difference. But whether the congregation is picking up trash or having a marriage class, that is what I mean by serving the community.

  29. @Rev. McCall #133

    In vast time-line of the history of the church catholic, vestments went hand-in-glove with what it meant to be a pastor presiding at the Divine Service. It was the enthusiasts at the time of the Reformation and today who push the argument for vestment-less pastors.

    The Lutheran pastor who does not wear vestments needs to answer these questions: “What is your rationale for not wearing vestments when presiding at the divine service? What are you trying to teach your parishioners by wearing a suit and tie?”

  30. @Rev. James Schulz #122

    But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” (1 Sam 14:7)

    We do not need to dress a certain way, put on a certain face, pretend as though we are “pious” to come to church. We don’t have to put on masks or act as if we are hunky-dory when we are hurting. We can be ourselves — God knows us and loves us as we are. He sent His Son to die for us when we were sinners, not after we achieved perfection.

    And I, as their pastor, am just as dependent upon God’s grace for my salvation — for my every work — as they are.

  31. @Mark Louderback #136

    Are you saying that when a pastor wears vestments he is teaching his people that he’s a hypocrite, that he’s putting on a mask of piety which he really doesn’t have? Are you saying the pastor who doesn’t wear vestments is better communicating to his people that he is dependent on God’s grace for his salvation, unlike the pastor who wears vestments?

    @Mark Louderback #137

    Are you saying that a pastor who wears vestments is teaching his people that the power of the means of grace depends on the pastor and not the Word?

    My people don’t think that at all. If anything they understand vestments to be helpful in masking the pastor’s weaknesses so that they can focus on the Word.

    So, again as I asked you earlier, what is your rationale for not wearing vestments? What do you tell the visitor to your church who asks you why you don’t wear vestments?

  32. @Rev. McCall #133
    Most doctors, nurses, pharmacists, military men, police officers, postal carriers, firemen, pilots, bus drivers, hotel house staff, and McDonalds employees wear identifiable uniforms when they are carrying out their official duties. Is it too much to ask that our pastors cover up in a way that shows they are set apart to perform special duties? When pastors presiding over the Divine Service dress like businessman or lawyers or Beach Boys or cabana boys or pastors their uniforms speak to what they are doing and how they view themselves professionally. The Church should hold itself to just as high if not a higher standard of order and professionalism than any other institution.

  33. @Rev. James Schulz #138

    Are you saying that when a pastor wears vestments he is teaching his people that he’s a hypocrite, that he’s putting on a mask of piety which he really doesn’t have? Are you saying the pastor who doesn’t wear vestments is better communicating to his people that he is dependent on God’s grace for his salvation, unlike the pastor who wears vestments?

    No, I think it just wearing certain clothes can communicate different things. I did services in both a robe and street clothes elsewhere. Same person, different clothes.

    But I do think that putting on a robe does “separate” you in certain sense from others. You just have to realize that and work around it other ways.

    Are you saying that a pastor who wears vestments is teaching his people that the power of the means of grace depends on the pastor and not the Word?

    It is closer to saying that a person who says that the only way possible to proclaim the means of grace is to wear a robe is wrong. Or that not wearing a robe means you are holding to a position of enthusiasm. That would be more of what I am saying. 🙂

    My people don’t think that at all.

    Great. Doubtless then, what you wear is perfectly appropriate.

    The question is, is it legitimate to say “You also must wear this”? Can we not have some variety in what we wear, just as we have variety in the languages we use?

    What do you tell the visitor to your church who asks you why you don’t wear vestments?

    I’ve never had anyone ask I believe.

  34. Sometimes when I come across this stuff, I think it’s satire, but this one isn’t. The sad thing is some Lutherans want to begin doing what the Evangelicals are beginning to abandon:

    “Modern Youth Ministry a ’50-Year Failed Experiment,’ Say Pastors”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/church-services-separated-by-age-un-biblical-say-former-youth-pastors-52964/

    Quotable quotes:

    A group of pastors and former youth ministry leaders suggest that today’s youth ministries should be disbanded, calling the common practice of separating congregations by age for worship and Bible study “unbiblical.”

    “You never see Moses, or Nehemiah, or Jesus, or the apostle Paul, or anyone ever segregating people by age. On the contrary, integrated discipleship is really an un-disputable pattern of Scripture.”

  35. @Mark Louderback #141

    “It is closer to saying that a person who says that the only way possible to proclaim the means of grace is to wear a robe is wrong. Or that not wearing a robe means you are holding to a position of enthusiasm.”

    That’s not what I’m saying, but often that’s what people hear. There’s no disputing that historic and contemporary arguments for vestment-less clergy come from theology and denominations that deny the efficacy of the means of grace. Lex orandi, lex credendi!

  36. @Mark Louderback #141
    By the way, after church last Sunday my wife and I were at the grocery store when an elderly man walked up to me and asked, “Where does death come from?” Now why in all the world would this guy ask me that question out of the blue? Yup, because I was wearing a clerical collar. Try it sometime, it’s a real, relevant, relational, cutting edge evangelism tool. No, I don’t wear a clerical collar when mowing the lawn, but my pug and I won “Best Owner/Pet Look Alike” contest at the local strawberry festival about 10 years ago because of the clerical collar. One of my members made a “dog collar” clergy shirt for my dog and I wore mine. Again, many people approached me to get answers to spiritual questions that were bothering them. Don’t take yourself too seriously.

  37. It didn’t take long to find this story, too:

    “Fla. Megachurch Ends Age-Segregated Worship”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/fla-megachurch-ends-age-segregated-worship-46471/

    “The best way a church can demonstrate unifying power of the Gospel before our very segregated world is to maintain a community that transcends cultural barriers,” Tchividjian said in a sermon earlier this month. “The church should be the one institution, the one community – this countercultural community – in our world that breaks barriers down.”

    “That may be good business but it’s bad worship; it’s bad church.”

  38. @Rev. James Schulz #117
    great question, wish i had a better answer than I don’t know. I guess it depends on what you are committed to as a congregation. It is a ton of work and expense, but there are different ways that are excellent to get the job done.

  39. @Rev. James Schulz #144

    I think that is just awesome. When I attended church for the first time in after spending eighteen years as a hard atheist, the man who is now my pastor greeted me in clericals. When I saw the collar I about fell over (coming from a Baptist and Pentecostal background I didn’t see the wearing of vestments and clericals at all), but at the same time I recognized that this fellow is a pastor.

  40. @Mark Schulz #123

    And to the person who said they had visited and we did not have confession and absolution in our contemporary service: they may have “missed” it because it was not done in the way they expected. I lead the congregation in a prayer of confession following the message, and absolution is proclaimed and received as a part of the Lord’s Supper that immediately follows this confession.

    If a person who knows what to expect doesn’t recognize it how can you be sure that newcomers would understand it or young people or children?

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