Comments for Steadfast Lutherans » http://steadfastlutherans.org An international fraternity of confessional Lutheran laymen and pastors, supporting proclamation of Christian doctrine in the new media. Mon, 30 Mar 2015 02:09:46 +0000 hourly 1 Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by Diane http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086673 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 02:09:46 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086673 @Joe #16

Hi Joe,
Melanchthon wrote the Augsburg Confession and Apology. In Article IV (II) Justification, paragraph 5 of the Apology he writes – ‘All Scripture ought to be distributed into two principal topics: the Law and the promises…’ He became a compromiser after Luther’s death in 1546.

In Christ,
Diane

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by jb http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086672 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 02:00:13 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086672 Joe –

Although I will not see the “finish” of the Reformation – getting long of tooth, myself, I believe we are witnessing the nascent events of Luther finally making inroads into Calvin’s heresy. I know it is just a beginning, but if Billy Graham’s grandson is talking Law and Gospel in serious tones (his book of devotions is pert dang good!), then we can know serious things are afoot.

I just don’t want to see any of the “shoot Missouri in the foot” crap.. There are enough bullet holes in the footsies already! :-)

Joe – you no one any apologies whatsoever – least of all – to me. You spoke frankly and that is always a good thing. Many of the men here at BJS border on “genius” on a human scale, and I admire their gifts from the Lord, but they know and confess that it is not themselves, but Christ that effects all change.

That is both humbling, and enlightening.

Pax to you and yours . . .

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by Joe http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086671 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:44:04 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086671 @jb #17

JB,

I understand Calvanism. I understand their views on election and their views on the sacraments. I just think sometimes, when we go into something with a view already that it is going to be bad, we miss some of the good. Would I be happy if this happened during a Divine Service, absolutely not. But it was a lecture, and I feel as if people who viewed it and have a good lens, took away from it what they needed to. I thought it meant the purpose of what it’s purpose was.

I’m going to step out. I apologize if I came of as attacking anyone (I don’t think I did). I agree with the points Tim made in the article. I enjoyed the lecture, and felt he did a great job identifying a big struggle in the evangelical church. That would be the only thing that I disagreed on. I’m probably reaching for things just because it’s TT. If CSL would have had someone like Beth Moore there to lecture, and she gave the same treatment on Law and Gospel that TT did, I would have been up in arms. Probably just need to sit back and relax about it.

Have a great evening! God bless.

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by jb http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086670 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:12:55 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086670 Joe –

My suggestion (humbly mine) is this:

Go study Calvinism IN DEPTH. Immerse yourself in it, and understand why those who have emerged from it, or still suffer under it, are who they are.

T2 is flat out wrong on the Sacraments – but he is moving in the right direction. I am not counseling anyone in LCMS to commune him, but for God’s sake in Christ, i would exhort everyone to encourage the man in either direct words to him or by prayer.

Tim’s point is well-made. Nothing he said is “ad hominem” about Tullian. After reading a good bit of Tullian’s writings – Tim is right. But T2 is grasping at the right straws, and this is time for encouragement, no words of discouragement

I am running out of pennies. Done. Pax

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by Joe http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086669 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:59:02 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086669 @Tim Wood #12

I would love to hear any of the Preus clan speak on Law and Gospel. Any upstanding LCMS member would be lucky to hear them teach.

Your statement caught me a little off guard:
“why do we need TT to tell us that America needs L&G? We know this already, and thousands are evangelized every year with L&G by Lutheran pastors.”

I think it’s very narrow minded for us to think that we know everything that goes on in the evangelical churches of America. I don’t have enough time in the day to listen to every Fighting for the Faith episode. I’m sure not going to leave my LCMS home to attend an evangelical service just to check in on what the latest happenings are. Sometimes you need to hear it from the horses mouth.

I also think you are imposing a little bit of ad hominem here. Just because we don’t agree with Tullian on the means of grace (which I agree is a huge divide), does not mean that he can’t have a firm hold on rightly dividing Law and Gospel. I re-watched the lecture, and I don’t see how he didn’t rightly divide it. What did he leave out that didn’t lead you to feel he rightly divided it in his talk.

It’s also interesting to me that you attack TT on the basis of his view on the means of Grace (again, just to state, I agree that his position is not our position in the LCMS), but you also reference Melanchthon (who if I’m not mistaken didn’t adhere to our belief of the means of grace tied to the Lord’s Supper by the end of his life either). It seems a little two sided a point of view. (Please correct me if I am wrong on Melanchthon, I do not claim to be a theologian or a historical scholar of the reformation or church fathers.)

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by jb http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086668 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:26:18 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086668 Ahhhh . . .

But you see, you cannot remove/change who Tullian is, any more than you can erase who YOU are. We as the followers of Christ must deal with what is, not erect straw men and then beat the hay out of them.

Tullian is what he is. He needs some serious instruction, but he (I am now certain he reads this site), is hardly going to be drawn toward any legalism at this point. His theology is still screwed up – but I would hope anyone confirmed could see that. He IS progressing toward correct doctrine. Prayer would be far better than negative commentary at this point!

My dawgs are always straying, but I use Luther’s carrot and stick, never one without the other. Posting here to appear “orthodox” is of zero importance. Posting here to apply the Gospel to a particular situation is of premier importance.

We ought to understand that, first and foremost.

Pax

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by Randy Yovanovich http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086667 Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:03:43 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086667 Follow me for a moment:

-TT is a celebrity within evangelical circles and the speaker circuit.
-The LCMS has a pure confession, but many weak confessors.
-LCMS evangelicals/Church Growthers (such as Woolsey) who have strayed from our confession, love to be associated with TT because his celebrity legitimizes their movements.
-Quasi-confessionals love to be associated with TT because they believe associating with such a celebrity teacher means that the LCMS is a legitimate contender in current culture.
-Some confessional Lutherans like to associate with TT because, as a celebrity within theological circles, he gives them hope that the LCMS is on the right track.

The common thread is “celebrity.” TT’s confession isn’t correct or unique. TT is simply a celebrity and we all love to associate with well known people. Remove TT’s celebrity status and what do you have? Just another preacher who doesn’t quite understand God’s means of Grace.

The LCMS needs to stop seeking legitimacy in culture and instead needs to focus on the only thing that matters………Word and Sacraments.

P.S: If we really care, instead of letting TT speak so much at LCMS events, we should instead invite him to listen more.

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by jb http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086666 Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:03:54 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086666 T2’a reading BJS . . .

Coolio.

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by Tim Wood http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086664 Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:39:56 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086664 @Joe #9 Yes, catechism will help, along with a laity that actually sits under instruction – it’s a two-way street.

TT makes the call for Law & Gospel, but I have never heard him talk about it rightly divided in the way that Walter or Melancthon lay it out. He always seems to default to a radical grace message irrespective of the audience or the circumstances.

My question remains – why do we need TT to tell us that America needs L&G? We know this already, and thousands are evangelized every year with L&G by Lutheran pastors. Since this is home turf, why not get Dr. Christian Preus to lecture on L&G?

Lastly, let me take a bit of a cheap shot to illustrate my point. TT is all about L&G, right? So why has Coral Ridge Presby purchased a VBS from the SBC controlled Lifeway that is all law? Here’s the blurb: “LifeWay’s VBS 2015, Journey Off the Map, is based on Isaiah 30:21. Kids explore uncharted territory where they will begin to understand that obedience to God can lead them beyond the expected. So, toss the map, stick close to your guide, and prepare to listen for God’s direction on this journey that is unknown to us, but known to Him.” http://www.crpc.org/vbs

L&G for him, but 100% law for the kids of Coral Ridge?

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Comment on What Does the LCMS Reap by Sowing Confusion Among its Members? by jb http://steadfastlutherans.org/2015/03/what-does-the-lcms-reap-by-sowing-confusion-among-its-members/comment-page-1/#comment-1086663 Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:09:19 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=41999#comment-1086663 I like T2 – I’m reading his devotional book “It is Finished” – a gift from a dear friend. Although it showed up in the earlier devotions – his May 4th devotion had me shaking my head. There was Holy Baptism in full with the story of Naaman, and he managed, in great Calvinistic fashion, to spiritualize it all, even while acknowledging the miracle.

My friend thinks T2’s LCMS friends will eventually persuade him to do a breaststroke over the Mississippi. Perhaps. My guess? Most likely not. His very pedigree might prove an impediment.

I know it’s an old saw, but I do believe we are just a bit “too catholic” for T2.

Them’s my 2 pennies to the discussion. Pax!

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