LCMS Youth Gathering Praise Music Now Comes with a Theological Disclaimer, by Pr. Rossow
We thank a BJS reader for alerting us to this troubling development. Here is a disclaimer on the bottom of the website promoting the bands that will be playing at this summer’s LCMS national youth gathering:
Performers are contracted for a specific Gathering task or presentation at the direction of Gathering planners. Information on a performer’s Web site may not represent the position of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod in its entirety. The YMO does not necessarily suggest endorsement of the entire editorial or theological opinion of the performer or organization.
Here is a close-up of the bottom of the website as it exists today. We have saved a PDF copy of the page as it exists today.
Bands page of National Youth Gathering Disclaimer
This development does not surprise us. It follows the trajectory that President Kieschnick has set for the LCMS – change with the times because this is no longer your grandfather’s church.
Here are some Scriptures that we wish the YMO and President Kieschnick, who by policy is to be the supreme supervisor of the synod, would consider before inviting heterodox praise and rock bands to minister to our youth:
Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Jude 3Â Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
Click here for a link to a sermon by C. F. W. Walther, one of the grandfathers of the church, on preserving the pure Gospel.
President Kieschnick is already according to the LCMS Â Handbook the chief supervisor of doctrine of synod in the church and these things are happening. We do not like the prospect of him also becoming the temporal supervisor of the ministries of the synod as would happen if Blue Ribbon proposal #18 passes. Again, we call on the members of synod churches and the delegates to the convention to wake up and restore Biblical purity to our denomination.
I’m wonder three things:
1) Why are the gathering planners including those they admit are heterodox presenters for a Lutheran youth gathering?
2) What does the statement, “Information on a performer’s Web site may not represent the position of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod in its entirety“ mean? Does it mean that information on a performer’s web site represents part of the position of the LCMS, but not the entire position of the LCMS? Or, does it mean that information on a performer’s web site represents the position of only some members of the LCMS? Why doesn’t it just say, “information on a performer’s web site may not represent the position of the LCMS”?
3) Website information aside, what about the actual presentations or performances of these presenters? Can the gathering planners assure anyone that the presentations and performances of these (admittedly) heterodox presenters at the gathering will represent the position of the LCMS?
I’m sure I read something, somewhere about leading children astray and millstones. Apparently, that doesn’t apply to the LCMS Youth gathering planners, as long as they issue a disclaimer.
TW
Parents are used to being excluded from info & instruction in “public” schools, even some LCMS schools. But it begs belief, that there is no where on this site, for parents to investigate, learn any info for, or what happens to their kids, once down there. What are these kids are going to be taught, let alone hear, & what is Synod exposing them to?
If you list a disclaimer, no LCMS Youth leader, should be encouraging, let alone taking any kid to this event.
Nervous, we should be, if your congregational youth is attending this, advisory to those in the know or who are leading, should be done, post haste.
We should do well to remember, what happens when good men do nothing. If we allow our youth to be corrupted, we corrupt our own future.
I’ve had my fill of that, thoughts anyone?
Todd,
Check the first one on this list. I think he is the one, who mentions one of his favorites as “Velvet Elvis”. Remember Rob Bell? No brainer here, he spoke at Concordia Mequon. Why don’t we, if we haven’t already, sign consultant contracts w/ Rob Bell, Leonard Sweet, and Dan Kimball? We already consult by proxy, why not just hitch the wagon, to where it is already following?
Trust me, I am being caustic here.
May we remind people that feel the need for something official more than the need for something orthodox that Higher Things is a RSO of the LCMS now. (I think the Reporter still hasn’t noted that?)
http://www.higherthings.org
We are at least two synods in one. I know it, you know it, and the LCMS bureaucracy knows it. If we do not make a dramatic change for confessional Lutheranism soon and do what needs to be done, then it will be time to official recognized what I stated above. We can’t be Lutheran and pentecostal at the same time. Confessionalism and cross go together.
I think the LCMS constitution says something about “heterodox tract and missionary societies” and unionism and such. It’s for the children.
“…All this evidence makes clear that the church retains the right to choose and ordain ministers. Consequently, when bishops either become heretical or are unwilling to ordain, the churches are compelled by divine right to ordain pastors and ministers for themselves. Moreover, the cause of this schism and dissension is to be found in the ungodliness and tyranny of bishops, for Paul warns that bishops who teach and defend false doctrine and impious forms of worship are to be considered accursed.”
+ Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, The Power and Jurisdiction of Bishops,72 +
((( link to http://bocl.org?TR+72 added so you can easily read this in context by editor )))
I wonder if the distinction between a quia and quatenus subscription to the rule of faith comes into play here?
Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Trouble is that Kieschnick and his gang actually take this Galatians passage and apply it to Orthodox Confessionals because remember that Synod is a dead church and these boys are reviving it.
It is a heady thing to resurrect a dead body.
Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Is this not one of the main passages that the Committee of the 44 in 45 used to undermine Synod’s Doctrine of Fellowship, saying that the Church went beyond this passages meaning and defined to narrowly what Fellowship was and is versus other Denominations?!
And therefore we got a Levels of Fellowship Teaching and have been playing catchup ever since in trying to hold the line concerning Unionism and Syncretism in our midst.
We are a Heterodox Church Body and becoming more Fanatic everyday, as the greater part of Synod’s Congregations have given up on the Central Doctrine of our faith, Justification, and are embracing a Theology of Glory.
Nothing and no teaching will be able to be resisted and the inexorable decline into meaningless stupidity and damnation is the only outcome. ELCA anyone.
Leave them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind, and if the blind lead the blind will they not fall into a ditch?!
Pastor Rossow,
It was a good idea to post the image of the disclaimer statement as it presently reads at the YMO site. Expect it to be changed.
When can we expect a disclaimer statement for the gathering itself?
TW
“Performers are contracted for a specific Gathering task or presentation at the direction of Gathering planners. Information on a performer’s Web site may not represent the position of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod in its entirety. The YMO does not necessarily suggest endorsement of the entire editorial or theological opinion of the performer or organization.”
Translation: “The leadership of the LCMS reserves for itself a free pass on any doctrinal matters involved with who we invite to make presentations to our youth.”
So, essentially, they have snubbed their noses at the importance of doctrine.
(From a 2002 [?] letter to the editor in the LCMS Reporter paper)
Doctrine and outreach
President Kieschnick’s concern about “incessant internal purification” distracting us from mission work (January Reporter) is, with all due respect, pure fantasy.
If anything, we are plagued by incessant confusion and division about the pure Gospel. Examples? First, there is the neo-Pentecostal movement in our Synod. As President Kuhn said in his 2001 convention report, “the charismatic movement and the teachings of God’s Word are incompatible.” And then there are the lobbies for women’s ordination, open communion and various confusions about the Gospel ministry. Instead of “incessant” attempts to correct these aberrations, our real danger is incessant yakkedeyak to evade the issues.
Getting the message straight is logically and theologically prior to getting it out! Evangelism depends absolutely on the evangel, the content of the Gospel. If synodical trumpets cannot give a clear sound (1 Cor. 14:7,8), they need to be replaced –precisely for the sake of the Church’s sacred mission!
Dr. Kurt Marquart
Fort Wayne, Ind.
Jim #10,
That is just one thing this does. This endangers the Spiritual lives of our most naive & innocent of us, our children. Don’t look now folks, but the LCMS’s “emergent” is showing.
It appears they are just trying to hedge off the complaints that occurred last time with proposed ‘worship leaders’ at that conference. BTW, I surfed over to the website for ‘Lost & Found’, one of the artists to perform. http://speedwood.com/aboutmusic/audio.php I don’t know whether to laugh or cry hearing their renditions of some classic hymns. My opinion, but it’s just simply ‘bad’ (that’s opposite of ‘good’ so there’s no mistake).
This has been a sad day for me and my family. In this morning mail we received the notice that our Organist and Choir director is resigning. He is one of the premiere organists here in Milwaukee. I have known him all of my life and his 50 some years. I was honored to sign in his choirs until time took it’s toll on my voice. In his generous statement he says “The time has come, time to move on”, for that I give him credit. The truth be known, the agenda of the congregation and it’s phony “Outreach”, is apparent. I probably have lived too long to accept the new “Mission and Ministry’, governance over the old “Voter’s Assembly”, good luck with your “Creative Approach”.
TW,
I have to credit Norm with the idea to freeze it in time. We have gotten burned on that before here it at BJS. As a matter of fact, I submit that the disclaimer was actually put there because of my stories a year and half ago about the Texas District Youth Gathering. After our post on that they changed the gathering website. We will have to ressurect that story to remind people that this is a recurring theme in Jerry’s world.
TR
Harry,
I am sorry to hear of the loss of your organist. You are correct about fearing the loss of the old voters assembly. The new boards of directors and President Kieschnick’s proposed ministry teams centralize too much power in individuals.
At our parish (Bethany – Naperville, Illinois) we did away with the old “ministry council” and replaced it with a strong Voters Assembly and strong Board of Elders. We have been averaging over 100 members per voters assembly for the last several years and have restored a real family sense to the congregation. I say out with corporate approach to church and in with the family style where every member is given the right to and is also expected to listen for the voice of Christ from the pulpit and question when they hear a foreign voice.
TR
One of the hallmarks of the purveyors of false doctrine at the seminary in the 50′s and 60′s was that “anything goes.” As the graduates moved out, and upward, this became a characteristic of the DP’s from that era. It’s still going on–now nobody has the you-know-what’s to deal with this kind of stuff. There’s a deeper issue, perhaps:
It appears that much of our leadership is ashamed of the LCMS.
johannes.
@Pastor Tim Rossow #16
As a matter of curiosity, Pastor, does your Voters’ include women?
Helen,
Yes it does. When I came to the congregation years ago it was a typical LCMS 90′s parish with the role of women expanding. With some teaching the congregation has better realized the unique Biblical role of men and women but we have never seriously discussed the role of women in the voters assembly. I am very pleased with the scriptural maturity of our women. I rarely encounter any gender pride. I am sure restricting our voters assembly to men would meet some resistance but I get the sense that it would not be the end of the world for most of the women of the congregation.
TR
The site lists the names of songs that will be used at the LCMS Youth Event. Here is a link to one of the songs on the list: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7F-B2DLvAQ
Listen to the song. It seems a Mormon, Muslim or a Unitarian could also sing this song. Not sure what about this songs makes it Christian.
As wrong inviting these teachers to the NYG is, isn’t this equally an opportunity? I understand the desire to promote “change at the top” – but even that won’t (itself) advance the purposes for which BJS was developed. I actually see this admission by the NYG planners and organizers that they are employing heterodox teachers to teach our children at the NYG as an opportunity for BJS to further it’s mission.
From the BJS’ ABOUT US page: “The Brothers of John the Steadfast, brings together Lutheran laymen to defend and promote the orthodox Christian faith which is taught in the Lutheran Confessions,…”
We have numerous well catechized people in this community as well as many good pastors who have a passion for accomplishing this goals. The NYO has, by posting this disclaimer, virtually invited all orthodox Christians to examine and each and every teaching presented on the sites of those performers and clearly and unequivocally expose them as heterodox teachers (if they are). Or, conversely, affirming their work if they are found to be orthodox.
While it may seem easier to try to apply pressure to deal with this situation (which seemed to be the MO regarding the Texas gathering) I think it would be much more helpful if each contingent of youth, on their own initiative and because they were already properly catechized and KNEW BETTER, left the arena when these heterodox teachers entered. Alternatively, having our youth elect to “pass” on the NYG because of the decisions made on what performers were invited (Rom. 16:17) would be more effective than simply lamenting the problem or, worse, using the facts of the problem as some sort of political rallying cry — which serves no practical parish purpose. This problem is NOT a political problem, it’s a catechesis problem and can only be solved by the hard catechetical work that BJS was ostensibly established to promote.
But this would take description of the heterodox teachings at a level that our youth and parents understand and extensive catechesis — and frankly, even a dedicated “youth pastor” (ack, I hate that concept) won’t have time to do the research and develop the material necessary for even one of these performers before the NYG this summer.
Note to all: I think the NYG as a concept is WONDERFUL and something I support. My biggest problem has been the specific teaching that has occurred there at each of my experiences — both as a youth as a vicar/chaperone.
I think, if as a group we organize and apply ourselves to careful analysis and development of material for such catechesis, it is quite possible to accomplish — and perhaps some of the new-media folks can help organize the material and make it “bite-sized” via podcast and other formats.
This comment isn’t meant as an indictment… I know many of us here already do this sort of work – or at least large portions of it and that politics is an attractive solution for those who know the truth. But in most congregations this can only be ad-hoc and partial because there is not enough time for an individual to deal with it all — we’ve become MUCH too insular and we’re not prone to share things easily. IMHO – What’s needed is a central clearing house to work through such things on an organized basis so we can support one another in our mutual efforts.
As I see it, to do it properly the process would involve identifying potential false teaching(s), engaging in conversation with the performer/group to clarify any ambiguities and clarify the position being taught and, finally, developing a clear articulation of the false and true teaching. What must be kept in mind is that the FOCUS is on the teachING not the teachER (although ultimately they can’t be completely separated since it’s important to “watch out for” and “avoid” those who teach false teachings).
Anyway — my thoughts… now on to working on my catechetical work for High School Bible study tomorrow (we’re [slowly] working through Forde’s, On Being a Theologian).
Rev. Dent,
I assert it is both. The catechesis is needed and the alerting of LCMS congregation members of this sort of nonsense is needed.
BTW – as you point out the tail has sort of starting wagging the dog here at BJS. The blog feature of the website has become quite succesful but confessional catechesis is more important. We certainly have a boat load of that here (Klement, Diekmann, etc. come to mind) but it gets eclipsed by the more shocking stuff like this post and so we are currently working to get the emphasis back on confessional education and make this blogging and newsy stuff secondary.
TR
There is no shortage of such “music ministries” inundating our synod. Below is an example I recently received (how DO they get my e-mail?) wherein LCMS pastors are endorsing the “music ministry” of a musician who is clearly of a Reformed persuasion.
The endorsements by LCMS pastors like those below are meant to be public, so I’m not revealing anything meant to be kept private. Is it worth the bother to ask these pastors what on earth they are thinking? (BTW, I have personal experience with such things, having myself spent a year as a musician on the road with JOY, Inc. (a Bill-Gaither-Andre-Crouch-2nd-Chapter-of-Acts-Michael-Green-type of contemporary charismatic music, 1975-1976) — but I never inhaled.
========================
Right on, Eric. The freemason guys I know would be equally able to sing this to the “Great Architect.” There is certainly nothing wrong with praising God for the First Creation, and our hymns often do this. But what is missing? Oh yeah, that Second Creation thing from 2,000 years ago.
“Precious Lord, reveal Your heart to me.” This would be the time to proclaim the humiliation and exaltation of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Means of Grace, but that would be too narrow-minded. This is why I grumble about “Amazing Grace” being in the LSB at the expense of “Now Praise We Christ the Holy One.” At least they left the “bad” verse out, but how am I saved, and why can I see? It is not my wish to start the TLH vs. LSB debate, because LSB does many things well, and it would also be off topic (imagine that).
@Mark #13
On hearing their rendition of, ” Love Divine, All Loves Excelling”, I was reminded of the quote of C.S. Lewis concerning what Hell would be like, when he said that Hell would be full of ‘noise’.
Irreverent, cacophony, that irritates the punishments of Hell.
@Mark #13
@Deacon Brian Hughes #24
I just listened to “Love Divine…”, and “Thy Strong Word.” The first thing that occurred to me was that perhaps this was a parody. But, no, that can’t be….impossible…no, no!!
Deason, at first I thought your quote of C.S. Lewis might have been a bit over the top. Upon listening to the renditions above, tho, I’m having second thoughts. Not quite ready to assign the performers to the nether regions, but how can anyone say this belongs anywhere near a church? LCD (Lowest common denominator), I guess. So let’s call this kind of music what it is “LCD Music.”
johannes
What if they gave a NYG and nobody came?
My son isn’t going to the NYG. He’s got parents who pay attention to what it is that’s being taught in thought, word, and deed at the NYG. That’s why he’s not going.
I call on the BJS to lead a movement to boycott the LCMS Youth Gathering. We can use the internet, blogs and FB to get the word out.
Eric,
That’s not a bad idea. Our congregation has done just that for the last six or seven years by sending our youth to Higher Things. This year they are going to Nashville.
TR
“In a proper and pure public service of worship it is not only fitting and necessary that the preacher should preach only God’s pure Word, but also that the congregation sing only pure hymns. Though this latter point is indeed necessary, yet it is without a doubt a matter of the greatest importance that the preacher choose from among the good hymns and assign them to be sung, precisely those which properly prepare the heart for hearing the Word of God and best serve to preserve and seal the Word already heard.”
(C.F.W. Walther, quoted in the Roots of Hymnody in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, 1965, page 23).
Want to thank everyone that is responding to this article. Thank heavens for BJS! As i have stated before we make copies of much of this and send OR give it to LCMS people that do not have computers. Many eyes have been opened and many refrain giving to the SYNOD. This is what is happening this is something near and dear to both of us at this household. Having in a space of a couple of years we older people attended the church services from Higher Things convening here twice. The services were a delight in the middle of summer and met any number people that are affiliated with the organization. No our people are not a part of this at the church where we attend…but these are the big city folks . SORRY TO SAY THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE MISSING EVEN THE YOUTH DIRECTOR. One of the services held in the church of Xavier College Church and the other at Concordia Seminary.
Hope you can keep us informed of this gathering 2010.. and inform the rest of us.. As I and I mean I me they can keep the REPORTER as it is called the DISTORTER in MY Books!
.
@Mark #13
@Deacon Brian Hughes #25
@Johannes #26
While their website recognizes that some may desire to use their songs for worship, the experience I have had with Lost & Found is that they recognize that their music is for concerts not worship. Hymns with a speedwood setting (speedwood is a musical style, sometimes described as “acoustic grunge”) are not there for use in worship, but to put those texts in the hearts and minds of those who need to hear it. It is not a parody or intended to be irreverent. Quite to the contrary, it is because these hymn texts are so profound that they want to keep them before kids who might think they are not worth learning. You don’t find schlocky hymns (is that a word?) like “In the Garden,” but profound, Christological hymns, because those texts are worth propagating.
The stories they have told during their concerts (to someone boasting about their church’s million dollar AV system for worship songs – “It’s a place to start. In our church, we give everyone a hardbound copy of all the songs. Keep working, you’ll get there someday.”), and even some of their songs (“I want palms on Palm Sunday and red at Pentecost”) point to the fact that fun is fun but worship is worship, and there are traditions in worship that are worth holding on to.
I seem to recall that there is another youth organization, often endorsed on this website, that goes by the axiom “When we worship, we worship. When we play, we play.”
“The Gospel assumed is the Gospel denied.” -Lutheran Concerns Assoc. Conference, Jan. 2010.
I found it interesting that LCMS churches local governance structures were centralized in a pastor and ministerial board in many cases. As a member in the WELS now and in confessional LCMS congregations, I thought strong voter assemblies were the norm. I remember a mission support college LCMS church that used a board of directors with a weaker elders group, but still was not radical in nature.
I know my current WELS congregation’s elders group is always taking things to the voter’s assembly. Elder’s discuss issues with pastor, but decisions are made by voter’s assembly on a quarterly basis with an occasional quick voter’s meeting after church when needed.
@Pastor Tim Rossow #16
@Perry LUnd #34
> I thought strong voter assemblies were the norm.
LCMS now appears to define authority as something only the pastor has. I do not think that was always the case. At least since 1969 it has been necessary to define the voters as not having authority, despite many extant church constitutions. Even in an excommunication vote, should such a thing be possible in 2010, somehow that is not having authority.
It’s interesting, that so many of us adults, find what has been filtering down from Synod & Sem, for almost a decade, false teaching & still it continues. So much energy, time, and speech has prevaded on these issues, just imagine, what has been missed, or allowed if you will, with the children & youth of LCMS. BJS, has two articles going on our “youth”. (See Mollie’s PE article)
What else, have we missed or forgotten with our charges? What else, have they been taught or exposed to, that didn’t come w/a disclaimer? How many have heard it today? In the one place, that is to instruct (catechesis), but it is also our charge to protect from wolves & lions (in false teaching & apostasy). Someone/many, obviously, were not watching the gate, nor the towers. Pastor Dent, with the utmost respect, will the statement, “we didn’t have enough time to devote” suffice? Men, women, and children are being lead into the brambles, if not picked out of the sheep pen & put into the lion’s den…
shepherds protect their flocks first, or they will have no flock left to instruct or feed. And yes, that does begin at the top: Synod/Sem/Office.
New is always changing. Stability and security is found in constants, and in the Lutheran Faith, that is the Solas and the Confessions.
The fallen culture is constantly seeking that brass ring. It doesn’t exist, and LCMS bought that bill of goods, hook, line & sinker. And….we still are. As Pastor Rossow stated in #15, so it is & continues to be in “Jerry’s World”.
He can have his world, but speaking for me & mine, it is not welcome in ours. That space is reserved for the Sola’s & the Confessions.
Just a pew view, and I don’t know much…but I know & understand enough.
@Dutch #36
> Just a pew view
http://www.reclaimingwalther.org/articles/sheep.htm
Miles,
I fear & grieve the fact, too many have forgotten what & Whom they sit under. If it was truly BELIEVED AND UNDERSTOOD, by those who must…who in their right mind, or Biblical judgement would ever entertain, let alone, engage in such a thing?
Thanks for the post. It was pricelessly perfect Miles. Kudos & thanks.
@ PPPadre #32: “When we worship, we worship. When we play, we play.â€
Isn’t that what is known as “The Galesburg Rule,” part dieux?
Perry LUnd # 34:
I read your blog on the voter’s assembly in your WELS church. I’m an elder at St. Thomas in Goodyear Arizona and our other campus in Phoenix.
We do our Elders and council work much the same way as you do. We discuss various topics regarding our congregation as a council with the pastor’s, then if we need anything on a larger scale done, we will go to our congregation and let them know what our options are on a particular issue. At that point, we will seek the feedback of all of the members in our congregation. (Such as a call for a pastor, or perhaps, the sale of part of our property, etc.)
Then, we will determine the direction that our congregation want’s to go, and discuss as a council the various proposals for the voter’s assembly to vote on. We can schedule these meeting’s at any time with our congregation, as various needs arise, for the voter’s assembly. It is very flexible, and it leads to a great unity in our congregation, because no one involved is acting as a “CEO”.
What is really great, is that each church congregation is so very independent, with almost no input from the Synod at all, unless we ask for help.
I’ll just put it like this: It’s like if you are a great worker, and you have a great boss, and he just leaves you alone to do your job–in this case, to preach the Gospel and to properly administer the Sacrament’s.
It really help’s, of course, if the SP, the district presidents and the pastor’s are all trained the same way and are all on the same page as far as doctrine and practice.
That’s my two cent’s worth!
I wish we had some real money and could get a good rock band like U2. Their lyrics are generally more spiritual and thought-provoking.
This is why my children will never attend a NYG.
Higher Things anyone?
One neat added bit of info:
Our Pastor is Pastor Myrl Wagenknecht. His three son’s are all WELS pastors as well. He has four brother’s in law that are LCMS pastor’s. You talk about really being Lutheran’s!
Pastor Wagenknecht is currently teaching the Book of John in our adult Bible class from his Greek Bible. He reads and translates from the Greek text’s better than I read my family newspaper!
Our services are so steeped in our Lutheran confessions, the only thing missing is the incense!
Praise God for the good stuff!
FWIW, the Conference hymn for Higher Things’ GIVEN conferences this summer is LSB 834 – O God, O Lord of Heav’n and Earth. All services and hymns are from the Lutheran Service Book and are accompanied by Mr. Chris Loemker (a talented, young LCMS organist from Collinsville, IL). All preachers and teachers (including plenary teachers, Rev. Mark Sell and Rev. David Kind) are rostered LCMS pastors or members in good standing of LCMS congregations.
Check out for yourself who taught sectionals and what they taught about at http://higherthings.org/conferences.html. (Click on the link for any of the past conferences, and then the Catechesis link for that conference.) And listen to a few samples of the music used in worship services from last year’s SOLA conferences at http://higherthings.org/conferences/sola2009/media.html.
And for anyone interested, you can still register to attend the conference at Utah State University in Logan, Utah from June 29-July 2. Register today for $335/person! You don’t have to attend as a “church group” either, we often have “groups” that consist of a parent and a child.
@Matt #41
If they want to entertain the kids with non-Lutheran entertainment why not give them some authentic New Orleans blues, jazz, cajun and zydego music? I mean they are in New Orleans after all.
I wouldn’t send my kids to a NYG either. Higher Things indeed.
@Matt #41
It is interesting to note that pietists don’t listen to “wordly music” and that is one reason why CW is very appealing to them. They can get the rock sounds without the “wordly” lyrics.
Eugene Peterson (“Five Smooth Stones for Pastoral Work”) describes “Neo-Baalism”, the watchwords of which are ‘Let’s have a worship experience,’ and ‘I didn’t get anything out of it.’ ”
Hmmmmm…..
Johannes
@Rev. Joel A. Brondos #23
This is to clarify Marty Miller coming to our church. The event was the 25th anniversary celebration of our church. After the liturgical service (led by President Wenthe), Marty played outdoors for the picnic. As noted, the pastor supervised the selection of songs to make sure they were Christ-centered and cross-centered, so “In the Garden” and the like were not played.
@PPPadre #32
My quote of C.S. Lewis referred to the noise that was made ‘of’ the hymn, but not specifically too the hymn itself. The rendition of it makes the hymn much less than the Holy Spirit intended just by the music united to it.
The music must bow before Christ and be a servant to Him and not the other way round.
The music can and does determine Doctrinal Content if used the wrong way, as this concept of music is not about worship in the Lutheran Sense of bringing out the meaning of the text, the Holy Word of God in Christ’s Person,Nature and Work, but rather to appeal to a Theology of Glory in man’s continued attempt to be Justified by his own ‘self chosen’ works and methods.
This paradigm of music,wedded to the Hymns, as illustrated, does not come from Him who thus inspired the text of the Hymn, as it was taken from the true interpretation of His Word.
Consider if Christ would use a tune from one of the many Cultic Temples of foreign gods that existed in the Hellenic world both Greek and Asian ( Persian ) and tried to wed it to one of the Hymns He used at the Institution of the Lord’s Supper, in this case one of the Psalms, and consider further that that tune was used in that temple to propagate a practice of using temple prostitutes to celebrate and bring about the Fertility of the Earth.
Would not that music appeal to the lasciviousness of Human Nature to help the Temple Worshipers to get in the mood to copulate and express all of the services meaning and outcome?
We are not dealing here in what about’s and if’s and maybe so’s, we are here dealing with Eternal Souls in a Soteriological War and there will be casualties. But we should be hopping Bloody Mad with the Anger of God, and a God Damned Anger at that, if these pervaers, not necessarily the Band, as ignorance is upon many, but these so called Ministers of the Gospel ,should lead many on the easy way to the wide gate.
Church Militant, Warriors of the Cross indeed.
@ POP #47
Thanks for the clarification. It’s good to deal with specific details when possible.
Still — and whether this is a major or minor difference worth considering in the discussion — I don’t think I would ever publicly endorse a musician whose music has to be supervised and who feels quite comfortable singing about a sanctification which feels comfortable going back and forth between Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian and other congregations — especially given the current worship climate and context of our times. And personally, I wouldn’t take Dr. Wenthe’s presence at the function necessarily to be an endorsement either.
You needn’t read my post as a blanket accusation or condemnation. If members at your congregation were introduced to his music and enjoyed it, they may well have purchased Marty’s CD’s and be listening to a selection of songs which your pastor did not supervise. If the endorsement of this musician leads people to have a view of sanctification which is at odds with the Scriptures as confessed in the Lutheran Confessions, then that wouldn’t be so good.
For all I know, all of the contemporary worship bands being advertised by the National Youth Gathering may each have undergone a stringent “doctrinal review” process. I still wouldn’t publicly endorse them. I wouldn’t even invite them to such a gathering where young people would be inclined to join their Facebook pages or be influenced in the future with descriptions of the Christian life which fall short of that which we believe, teach and confess.
So, once again, I’m not pointing the finger and shouting “off with their heads!” I’m attempting to engage in a discussion so that we might be of one voice and mind in Christ. Right now, I don’t think that we have that in the synod.
And once again, all of this just makes me wonder:
Don’t we have any good confessional LUTHERAN guitarists and musicians singing lyrics that confess the Scriptures in a way that doesn’t deviate from the Lutheran Confessions?
And if not, does anyone think that there might be a rational explanation for that?
When we have guest speakers at conferences and gatherings who are non-demonimational or Reformed or whatever, I ask: Don’t we have any decent LUTHERAN speakers who can proclaim the truth and practical applications in a Law-Gospel winsome manner?
And IF we don’t have any gifted speakers, does anyone think that there might be a rational explanation for that?
Are two-million Missouri Synod Lutherans so dull, uninteresting and untalented that we are incapable of having an impact so that we have to “outsource” to Wesleyans and Calvinists and antipedobaptists to motivate us and tell us how to live the Christian life?
And why are LCMS pastors endorsing Wesleyans and Calvinists and non-denominational speakers and musicians?
And in what contexts do LCMS pastors and people get to know Wesleyan and Calvinist and antipedobaptists so well that they can recommend THEM but they don’t know of any LUTHERANS who can do the trick?
I mean, how did the planners for the NYG know about these musical groups in the first place (and assuming that they are familiar with many others but just selected these few)?
I imagine that perhaps they heard them all on KFUO-AM.
Dutch #36 & Pr. Rossow #22
Dutch: You said: “will the statement, ‘we didn’t have enough time to devote’ suffice?” – I answer – NO! and that was my point. I think Pr. Rossow (#22) understood what I intended – that I sense an unbalanced approach to some of the issues identified on the BJS site and IMHO a corrective is to have a more concerted effort to develop and share materials that would better equip each other to recognize and deal with the false teachings underlying the issues identified. What I was advocating for was a means/mechanism to “redeem the time” that we have. I was not looking for excuses.
I also agree there is a “both/and” effort that is necessary. Congregations – as members of this representative organization called “SYNOD” – WILL be held accountable for their part in allowing these shenanigans to occur under their auspices. Thus, there IS a political element that must be exercised. My ultimate concern, however, is that the politicization of these things PRIOR to a well reasoned and articulated evaluation of the issues — specifically from a SCRIPTURAL standpoint — is a dangerous road to take.
Like many of the facts brought to light on the BJS site, I appreciate the raw fact being brought to light that NYO has put this disclaimer up. The question I’m posing is WHAT OUGHT WE DO ABOUT THE FACT. Wringing our hands, lamenting both the fact and the underlying need that gave rise to the disclaimer is unproductive. I would even submit that it is COUNTER productive since it wastes the most precious resource we have… time.
As some dead German who most of us around here love and respect said, the only “power” we have is the power of the Word and convincing (based on that Word).
From what I’ve seen, much (but NOT ALL) of the discussion surrounding so many of the issues brought to light on this site focuses on OTHER ways to exert power to change things and thus falls into the same trap as the BRTFSSG recommendations.
That is to say, it seems we, like the authors of the BRTFSSG reports and recommendations, believe there is some OTHER sort of power in the church besides the power of the Word and convincing (based on that Word). For example, the BRTFSSG asserts that there is some inherent power of the vote, the constitution, and the bylaws which bestow that power on individuals in office. Some of the “other powers” in discussions in this particular thread regarding the NYO disclaimer, include, among other things, the power of boycott (in fairness, my own comments, although not intended so, could be read as an endorsement of this kind of power) and the power of endorsing and using alternative organizations.
What I’m advocating is the use of the ONLY true power we’ve been given, the power of the Word and convincing (based on that Word).
My argument is the same whether we’re talking about the false teachings of performers (ministers?) Hired/Contracted/(Commissioned?) by Synod to teach our youth at the NYG or we’re talking about the BRTFSSG recommendations: If there is no other power that the church has than the power of the Word and convincing – it is imperative that we carefully examine these issues alongside the Word and present THAT ANALYSIS to convince others of the wrongness of the teaching. Until that is done, the ONLY legitimate power that the church has remains sheathed while we scramble to try to “solve” the problem in some other way. FURTHERMORE: Since the ONLY power given by God to deal with these issues is the power of the Word and convincing – ANY OTHER WAY is, BY DEFINITION, “ungodly” — even if the aims and motives and tactics are “good” in a civil righteousness sort of way. We thus become part of the problem and not the solution.
Such work is hard and time consuming and absolutely cannot be accomplished alone by a parish pastor while attending to the other important duties of his office. There are simply not enough hours in the day. Thus why I would advocate scaling back on the discussion and attempted use of these “other” powers and finding some mechanism to facilitate the work of exercising the ONLY legitimate power that God has given His Church to deal with these issues — the power of the Word and of convincing (based upon that Word).
… Oh, yeah, the dead German was C.F.W. Walther — first president of my grandfather’s church.
Rev. Dent,
Don’t mistake the commenters on this blog for this blog. For every commenter there are dozens of readers not commenting who are appreciative of the information revealed here. (We average 1,500 unique visitors a day.) People are learning all sorts of things that they would otherwise not know.
Again I say it is both and. It is not just a matter of catechesis. We also need leadership. People have been trying the catechesis thing for years in the LCMS and things are not better but worse. Keep up the catechesis. We can do nothing less. We are committed to it here on this site. However, it is also wise to do what we can to get leaders in key positions who understand the need for catechesis and who can catechize as Synodical President and Bishops. Catechesis and leadership should not be pitted against each other in the LCMS.
More “both and” to come…
TR
Sandra is right about Higher Things. I attended the 2008 conference as a paying adult day guest, but I liked it so well that I decided to pay to go every day. I may do so again this year if that option becomes available in Utah and I can afford it, the economic situation in California being what it is. (I’d much rather be in Utah than Tennessee, I guess because I grew up in the West and like the drier weather in this part of the country.) I’d gladly volunteer to help out in any way I could and still pay to attend. It’s that good.
—
Shifting topics a little:
This is not a criticism of Sandra or what she said, because I know that the people who chose the hymns from the LSB choose them carefully.
There are, however, some “hymns” in the LSB that should not be there. I could not believe that “Lift Every Voice and Sing” is in the hymnal and that the Lutheran Service Builder software suggests that this is appropriate for Lent! I wasn’t really familiar with this as it was not in TLH or LW (but was in LBW). If you use Google to search on it, you’ll find that the guy who wrote the words was a “confirmed agnostic” (whatever that means; I thought agnostic meant someone who was certain about God’s existence, but might be persuadeable) and wrote this for a performance on Abraham Lincoln’s birthday in 1900. “Lift Every Voice and Sing,” also known as the “Black National Anthem,” seems more appropriate for civil rights rally (see Kim Weston singing it back in the 1970s at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGWsqR6UbGk&fmt=18). (I had this discussion with both my pastor and Pr. Henrickson when he was in the O.C. recently and both thought it was inappropriate for a church service.)
Not surprisingly, the way the LCMS “outreach” effort is going, this type of “disclaimer should be included in the worship folders, bulletins, and marquees of many LCMS congregations.
May I suggest some excellent reading? “Liturgy and Evangelism in the Service of Mysteria Dei” by Dr. John Pless. Clear thinking and an excellent read. Those who are following the thread on “Lutheran Evangelism” would find it helpful, also.
http://ctsfw.edu/Document.Doc?id=293
Johannes
@Deacon Brian Hughes #48
Deacon Hughes,
I could see your point more readily if they changed the tune. Text and tune remain the same. What has changed is the setting.
I could see your point more readily if the style of the setting were more readily associated with “appeal[ing] to the lasciviousness of Human Nature,” but as the Speedwood style was initiated by Lost & Found, such secular associations are not there. Yes, Speedwood does share some elements with secular styles, but musical styles are so intertwined and borrow so heavily from one another, I am not sure that you can find any musical style that is uniquely ecclesiastical. Even plainsong shared some characteristics with its contemporary secular music.
I am not sure what your referent is with regard to “this concept of music.” You have a demonstrative with no antecedent. Much of the music performed by the professional musicians at the Gathering appeals to the Theology of Glory, and I would agree with your critique in many cases. I think you are painting with too broad of a brush when you include Lost & Found in that critique.
That being said, I should probably include that while I like many of their original speedwood songs, I don’t like their speedwood settings of those hymns. But that is a stylistic choice. I also don’t like any settings/songs/styles that put the words of my Lord in the mouth of a baritone or bass. The musical setting “language” that I most readily speak has the villain/antagonist as the baritone, the authoritarian figure (“Law” in the theological sense, thus theology of glory) is the bass, the “hero”/protagonist is the tenor – so having Jesus as a baritone or bass “speaks” contrary to the Gospel text in my ears. Not everyone accepts or understands that convention, and in other musical styles the bass is the “hero”/protagonist, so I cannot say that it is wrong – it just doesn’t suit my style.
@PPPadre #56
“I also don’t like any settings/songs/styles that put the words of my Lord in the mouth of a baritone or bass. The musical setting “language†that I most readily speak has the villain/antagonist as the baritone, the authoritarian figure (â€Law†in the theological sense, thus theology of glory) is the bass, the “heroâ€/protagonist is the tenor – so having Jesus as a baritone or bass “speaks†contrary to the Gospel text in my ears.”
I understand your personal preference here–no quibble. However, when you give a listen to Bach’s St. Matthew or St. John Passions, Jesus is sung by a bass. And, given the way Bach has orchestrated the passions, it works wonderfully. I can’t imagine him as a tenor or even a baritone. But–as you say, it’s a matter of personal preference.
Johannes
@Rev. Joel A. Brondos #50
Don’t we have any good confessional LUTHERAN guitarists and musicians singing lyrics that confess the Scriptures in a way that doesn’t deviate from the Lutheran Confessions?
Actually, I know a man with an advanced degree in music added to his M Div. He’s good; so far his primary job is parish Pastor but he also teaches music.
He’s a confessional Lutheran, so I doubt you’ll ever see him invited to district or national youth gatherings.
Hi brothers:
As a person with an interest in the Lutheran music of the 1600′s, I thought it might be useful to say that much of the sacred music of that time set the words for Jesus in the bass voice. Even before J.S. Bach. I’m not saying that it has to be that way today, it’s just an interesting historical observation of what you might have heard if you lived at that time.
There is definitely a connection between a worship song’s style and substance. If you change substance, the style will shift too. If you try to sing a Lutheran substance song to a different style, you might think it works for a little while. But just like walking on the bar of a fence, eventually you have come down on one side or the other. That is, you eventually have to change the substance to match the style (which seems like what is happening at the NYG), or you have to abandon the style and use a more fitting one.
Style relates to substance like fruit relates to a tree. That may be why I liken contemporary worship like trying to grow thistles from fig trees and thorns from grapevines. Or perhaps like growing an orange from an apple tree. Lutheran substance and Neo-Evangelical style just don’t fit together.
One more thought. Amos 5:23 indicates that God hates the music itself that accompanies and transmits a heterodox theology. That should make us stop and think about the implications of welcoming groups who play theologically heterodox songs at the synod’s youth gathering.
In Christ,
Rev. Robert Mayes
Fullerton, NE
A lot, in terms of style, depends on what we grew up with and are familiar with.
When I was in High School, my choir director (also a member of a neighboring LCMS congregation) was teaching us to sight read using the solfege method (do-re-mi…). When his congregation switched to LW, he brought the TLHs to school and used them for the music we were sight reading in 4 parts. A lot of the kids had trouble because the chorale style of the arrangements was foreign to them. As a life-long Lutheran, this was right in my wheelhouse. Half the time I didn’t even need to look at the music (so much for learning to sight read).
As I have learned other musical styles, it is more difficult to anticipate what is coming next because I am so used to the chorale settings of TLH. Some of these styles are beautiful, some are rather dissonant in my ears. They all use conventions to serve the text (like whether Jesus is a Bass or a Tenor – never a baritone, though – baritones are the bad guys), those conventions can be quite different, but they all serve the text in their own style.
Agreed.
Our Pastor Roger Neumann is doing a similar Bible study, and believe it or not, on John also right now.
@Lloyd I. Cadle #42
It would be helpful, indeed revealing, to see this whole business in the larger context. I commend the following to all for study and reflection:
“Liturgy and Pietism: Then and Now, By Dr. John Pless.”
http://www.ctsfw.edu/Document.Doc?id=294
It’s an eye-opener and may even give a few of us an “aha” moment.
Johannes (aha!!)