Let’s not forget that homosexuality is not the only issue that separates us form the ELCA. They have a long, long history of destructive Historical Criticism, ecuminism, and women’s ordination among others. The ELCA has even seduced some LCMS clergy to join their unionistic STS group, and hold a communion service in, of all places, Kramer Chapel!

I’m not expecting an influx of ELCA members into my congregation. But I am not going to simply receive them without extensive remedial catechesis.

I read about this at Brett’s page at The Wittenberg Trail.
http://wittenbergtrail.ning.com/profile/BrettWitmer?xg_source=activity
Give him a welcome and add him as a friend if you are on the Trail.

Pr. Kozak,

I would think people like Brett who flee the ELCA for the LC-MS would not only welcome extensive remedial catechesis, but they would expect and demand it.

Pr. Kozak writes:

“The ELCA has even seduced some LCMS clergy to join their…STS group”

Craig writes:

“I would think people like Brett who flee the ELCA for the LC-MS would not only welcome extensive remedial catechesis, but they would expect and demand it.”

But, Craig, who is going to do it, when even The Brothers of John the Steadfast have no problem with membership in STS? For all of the attempted ‘unifying’ of ‘LCMS Confessionals’, the fact is that there is not even a basic shared understanding of the error of belonging to a “ministerium” (which is an association of those who are/recognize one another to be pastors) such as STS (The Society of the Holy Trinity) in which the male members’ very act of membership lies to the female members by acting as if said women were actually pastors.

It is that sort of sham unity that makes people think that this is all ‘political’ instead of theological. For the sake of such false unity, not even one board member of BJS will speak out against continuing membership in this unholy group that deceived the (admittedly, gullible) Ft. Wayne administration into letting it use Kramer Chapel for their unionistic Communion service.

BJS has asked, at times, for a ‘view from outside’–from those of us who are no longer in the LCMS–but as long as such a situation obtains, I can’t see how those who are free from it would want any official connection; really, all such nonsense makes one want to do is smack his head against a brick wall and yell, “Please, Jesus, make it stop!”

It’s neither Kieschnick nor his supporters/followers that is the problem; it’s what Kieschnick has turned the ‘Confessional’ folk into that is the problem. No matter what elections you win by proceeding in this way, the mire of Missouri is just becoming deeper and thicker by such a lack of internal discipline among the ‘right’.

EJG

As someone who was confirmed in, well, technically it was the LCA a couple years before ELCA was born (dating myself), I can tell you the remedial catechesis is absolutely necessary! In my confirmation, we did not receive a complete Small Catechism, we studied what I would describe as a “tract on steroids” entitled “What Lutherans Believe Today”. Now this booklet did contain elements of the Small Catechism, but I had no idea it was incomplete.

Even after landing in an LCMS congregation (NOT Confessional) about 4-5 years ago I still did not know.

ONLY after finding this website, Pirate Christian Radio, and Cyberbrethren.com did I learn how much I was missing. Stocked up on supplies (Catechisms, BoC)from CPH and started
reading; then recently used the ‘Find a Church’ page on Issues, Etc website to find a nearby congregation that is faithful to the Lutheran Confessions.

Please know that finding Confessional Lutheranism probably kept me from running off to the Baptists. Albert Mohler was about the only person making any sense to me, and if our church was going to do, what is that word . . . Methobapticostal . . . worship anyway, we might as well go to the big church around the corner.

Issues, Etc, PCR, and Bros of John the Steadfast are making a difference.

“But, Craig, who is going to do it, when even The Brothers of John the Steadfast have no problem with membership in STS? …For the sake of such false unity, not even one board member of BJS will speak out against continuing membership in this unholy group … “

Pr. Stefanski,

I think what you state above is rather presumptuous and I would be careful not to speak for every “board member of BJS”; let alone for BJS.

I would like to comment as it is my blog that is referenced here in this article.

First, Pastor Rossow, thank you for putting up my blog entry on the Brothers of John the Steadfast site, I have made it bigtime now, haha. Yes, I am also gentleman.

Before I joined on Sunday I attended the church’s classes on the Large Catechism so I could get a decent catechesis. I also spent time here and there talking about joining and the differences between the church bodies with my pastor.

Part of me wondered if I ought to stay, as that same part of me wonders still if I should have fought for the Truth in the ELCA after my own awakening. Like I said though, I just saw everyone reason to enter the church body that taught me what being Lutheran was. I just could not go back to the ELCA that had tricked me into thinking I was already a full blooded Lutheran when I behaved more like an evangelical. So I’ve switched one Lutheran denomination with problems for another Lutheran denomination with problems, but I think the good ship Missouri isn’t lost yet, not by a longshot.

I’m here to stay as long as I can hear Christ and him crucified from the pulpit. I’m a member of the LCMS now and I’m on the side of confessional Lutheranism now though I am no where as well versed in it as many of you. But I am learning fast.

Aren’t we going down rabbit trails here? The issue is that people are leaving a denomination because it is no longer an orthodox Lutheran denomination. We cannot but weep for the ELCA, and know how difficult a decision this must be for those who walk away from it.
We welcome those who are coming into our fellowship, and even rejoice with them, but not without a tinge of sadness. Could we please stick to the subject?

We have looked into our quarterly editor’s involvement in the STS and are satisfied that he is not in pulpit and altar fellowship with them.

First, I am shocked–yes, shocked–at the Kieschnickesque self-defense now being played by BJS. You come back at me with “We’ve never endorsed STS”? Then you extend that to “We never endorsed the use of Kramer Chapel”? Please point out to me exactly where I accused you of endorsing either of these. If you cannot do so, your apology for creating a strawman in order to make my post look unreasonable ought to be forthcoming. Again, it seems awfully similar to Synod, Inc.’s responses wrt the Issues, Etc., trademark and other things. Try answering what I actually wrote.

You say that you’re satisfied that your editor is not practicing altar and pulpit fellowship with his “fellow pastors” in the STS. Again, you do not deal with what I have written. I have made it clear from the outset in other threads in this forum that I know that he is not communing at their retreats. Thus, this is not the issue. That is why, in my previous post on this thread, I removed Pr. Kozak’s use of “unionistic” with reference to the STS. While it is, indeed, engaged in unionistic practices, the BJS editor is known not to be. So, again, that is not the issue, at least not by itself.

No, the issue is supporting, by membership an organization that tells women that they are pastors and that also practices unionism. Just because you don’t do these things yourself does not mean that your membership doesn’t support them. When your editor insists on putting that “STS” after his name (like some Roman Catholic order of monks), he labels himself as “part of them” without qualification. He can do all the qualifying and arguing he wants with them; the fact is, when he signs his name, one has the right–no, the duty–to take it as if those initials actually mean something.

Mr. Pierce, there is no presumption on my part, just the simple fact: in all the months that this has been an issue, not one BJS board member has stood up and publicly voiced opposition to this group or spoken of the illegitimacy of membership in it.

When you say that I am going to far in speaking of this as the position of BJS, you, in fact, are going too far if you are asserting that I said that it was the position of every BJS member; I never said any such thing. BJS, as an organization, as expressed by the ruling of its board of directors, though, considers it acceptable to be a member of an organization that is based on a confession of faith, in which said membership acknowledges ‘female pastors’ and ‘eucharistic sharing’, whether the individual ever participates or not. Such acceptability to BJS is tantamount to accepting lodgism…as long as the lodge member or local lodge doesn’t participate in the rituals (and doctrine) of the national lodge.

In short, the trumpet is making an uncertain sound.

EJG

“BJS, as an organization, as expressed by the ruling of its board of directors, though, considers it acceptable to be a member of an organization that is based on a confession of faith, in which said membership acknowledges ‘female pastors’ and ‘eucharistic sharing’, whether the individual ever participates or not.”

Pr. Stefanski,

I am unaware of the ruling by the BJS board of directors you refer to. Can you please point me to this ruling? Also, I don’t know who comprises the board of directors. Can you name them?

“When you say that I am going to far in speaking of this as the position of BJS, you, in fact, are going too far if you are asserting that I said that it was the position of every BJS member; I never said any such thing.”

I asserted no such thing and will happily receive your apology. Indeed, it was you who asked the rhetorical question, “But, Craig, who is going to do it, when even The Brothers of John the Steadfast have no problem with membership in STS?” Right? I am glad that you are now retracting that impugning remark, since we both know that it is simply a falsehood; but please don’t try to pass of your remark as some dishonest attempt on my part to misconstrue what your question clearly states. That is simply wrong.

I cannot in good conscience join STS, or advise others to do so. Attend their meetings, bring a confessional perspective, by all means.

Mr. Pierce, while the rest of my post, in my opinion at the time, made it clear that I was speaking of the position of BJS in terms of the action of its Board of Directors, that initial question of mine was, indeed, worded in such a way that it did, in fact, impugn the whole membership. To refer to its BoD alone, I should have said “has,” rather than “have,” as “have” made the accusation distributive to the entire body of membership. Thank you for pointing this out to me; I am, indeed, sorry so to have unwittingly made an accusation beyond my intent. I know that several (if not many) of those who are dues-paying members of BJS agree with me that membership in STS is, in itself, wrong. Again, I am sorry to have done any harm to your or anyone else’s reputation by my misstatement, and I thank you for pointing out my error. By no means did I, nor do I, say nor imply that there was or is any dishonesty on your part; in saying that you had gone too far, I in no way intended to convey any ill will or false motive on your part, but only my belief that my words conveyed my intent–which was incorrect: my wording conveyed what you read, rather than what I intended.

A further error: wrt the “Board of Directors,” looking back at my files, I see that I should have, instead, been referring to “the steering committee.” On 19 November 2008, I received word that, “I surveyed the steering committee about [the editor's] participation in BJS and a clear majority (like 10-2) favored allowing his involvement based on his word that he does not commune with them.” To date, neither of those “2″ have publicly said that such membership is, in itself, wrong, nor has anyone else officially come out and said it was wrong, but, instead, as far as I know, all things remain as they were last year, with the simple act of refraining from communing at the retreats (which, presumably, one’s dues help pay for), etc., made STS membership a non-issue.

Let me repeat one principle: membership in an organization in which membership is based upon a mutual confession of faith and which requires the recognition of other members as something that they are not is not acceptable. I can belong to a political party that recognizes ‘female clergy’, but not a ministerium that does. (Then again, I can’t belong to a body whose self-definition entails my being in pulpit and altar fellowship with those with whom such fellowship clearly does not exist; thus, the same principle that bars me from joining STS also prohibits my membership in [or fellowship with the members of] either the Lutheran World Federation or the Missouri Synod.)

EJG

Pr. Stefanski,

Thank you for your apology I am happy to forgive you of your misstatement. The Lord’s peace be with you.

I do want to point out that the Steering Committee has not endorsed the STS.

Fwiw, my opinion is that membership in STS is wrong.

Jim Pierce

I appreciate Pr. Stefanski’s bold witness here. The membership in the STS murks up the waters and sends an unclear message, esp. to the pewsitters.

And we wonder why the conservatives/confessionals can’t get a SP elected. No sense even mentioning a “President Harrison” when we are so busy with ecclesiastical rabbit trails and theological in-fighting, as we were in 2001.
The issue here is the ELCA and its tragic slide from barely semi-orthodoxy to a purely CDC (Culture Driven Church).
The issue is people in the pews who are torn and confused by a leadership that has “forgotten its first love” (Rev. 2:4). They are indeed sheep without genuine shepherds.
The issue is — will the LCMS be an oasis of life in a wilderness of false doctrine and abominable practice?

Or am I missing something here?

Yes, Johannes, you are missing something:

And we wonder why the conservatives/confessionals can’t get a SP elected. No sense even mentioning a “President Harrison” when we are so busy with ecclesiastical rabbit trails and theological in-fighting, as we were in 2001.

This is not “theological in-fighting”; this is a matter of confession.

The ‘cheap unity’ approach has been tried over and over and over again, yet we have these constant voices of “we all need to get along.”

No, sir, we do not. What is necessary is confession–even a purge. Unless there is real theological unity, the hard work will never be done, but there will simply be a repetition of the half-hearted efforts of the past.

You ask whether the LCMS will be an oasis. I ask, rather, “What are you going to do if it’s not?” The fact that ‘LCMS Confessional leadership’ seems only able to answer that with “try, try, try again…no matter through how many conventions we have continue in fellowship with the false teachers,” actually answers not only my question, but yours, as well: “No.” To move to a Texas Hold ‘em analogy: You’re the guy at the table with the least money–by far–and until you (all) are willing to go “all in” when you’ve got a decent hand, the only possibility is loss: the big money guys will simply pick you apart hand by hand, whittling you down to nothing. The great thing being, if you do go “all in” and lose, the rest of us ‘out here’ will commend you for your confession and welcome you.

That’s similar to “There’s a difference between a martyr and a dead guy,” but we won’t take up bandwidth for that right now.

EJG

Mr. Pierce: Thank you.

EJG

To whom shall we go? It is one thing for a pastor to lead his parish into independence or ELDoNA or whatever, it is quite another for us poor “pew-sitters” to know where to turn. The availability of a confessional parish is not all that great and to some of us, traveling a distance to locate one is a physical impossibility. So, pray good fathers, what are WE to do?

The availability of a confessional parish is not all that great and to some of us, traveling a distance to locate one is a physical impossibility. So, pray good fathers, what are WE to do?

Mr. Bobb
Find others that are like you, looking for a faithful church and form your own. You will find a way to obtain a Pastor and become a lamp in the darkness. There are Pastors starting mission congregation, but I am afraid they do not belong to LCMS. These Pastors are worker priests.

Bill

It is one thing for a pastor to lead his parish into independence or ELDoNA or whatever, it is quite another for us poor “pew-sitters” to know where to turn.

We have folks that drive over an hour-and-a-half (every week), and we have others to whom I drive. If I had to drive to some five or six hours each way and who couldn’t make the drive here, I would do it. For all of the ‘think outside of the box’ stuff we’ve heard in the past couple of decades, it seems still to be very difficult for folks when it comes to the Church…and yet…is this not the very ‘box’ from which many of American Lutheranism’s historic congregations came?

BTW: it’s not easy for pastors, either…it’s a matter of commitment and confession on both sides.

EJG

It is entirely wrong for Stefanski, who left The LCMS, to come on to this topic and effectively derail it. I truly wish he would be at peace in his new church body, pursue his ministry there and leave LCMS matters to LCMS people. His remarks on this post are offensive and absurd.

One of the things that BJS does right is that it tries to have the broad scope of Lutheranism in view. It is sad that some of its posters are so backwards as to wish to thwart that. I don’t think that Pr. Rossow’s starting of this topic was intended to be an ELCA-bashing, triumphalistic bit of parochialism, but if comments like #25 were heeded, it would be easy for it to do so.

It’s not so much just the fact that #25 is a wholly ignorant comment, but the fact that it is a sinful comment that seeks to peer into the hearts of others. The fact that I am “at peace in” the ELDoNA gives me the leisure and liberty to be concerned for my brethren elsewhere. And make no mistake about it: what goes on in any corner of world Lutheranism is very much the business of all of world Lutheranism.

But, I’ll tell you what: why don’t you point out WHAT is absurd, so that maybe somebody other than the parochialist rabble (the sort who like to throw out inflammatory statements behind a cloak of anonymity) can agree with you?

EJG

Rev. Stefanski–

Regarding my personal anonymity, it is because of policy considerations, of which the editor has been made aware.

Regarding my post #19, I rest my case.

Apparently, commenter #25 is sufficiently ashamed of his falsehoods that he chooses to remain anonymous. How tiresome.

Pastor Stefanski raises a point that I have debated with myself several times, and also talked about with the two or three pastors that are willing to talk with me. It’s pretty clear when you get together with any group of “confessional” pastors in the LCMS that we are not agreed in doctrine on every point, nor is our practice anything like consistent. Our practice can’t be and shouldn’t be in lockstep, I’ll admit, but our theology should be uniform. What steps are being taken by the various confessional groups in the LCMS to address this?

Regarding my personal anonymity, it is because of policy considerations, of which the editor has been made aware.

Johannes, I know that sometimes, in very rare circumstances, a temporary anonymity is necessary–I have granted it to posters on our mail lists at times because of, e.g., a history of being staled on the internet, etc. The issue is what the poster does with that anonymity. You tend to use it responsibly, not as a vehicle for ad hominem arguments as was done in #25.

EJG

I say this with the utmost respect,

To those Pastors & Laity who have commented, you may well be forgetting those who sit in your pews & read this site. Enough now, please, so we are debating anonymity (some must for reasons unknown to others), who BJS supports or not, and the senseless bickering back & forth on supposed personal falsehoods/comments and avoiding the truthful & obvious ones (can we say elephant in the room?!)
My husband made commenting here verboten for me (wise man), he did for a bit, and stopped. I thank him for allowing me to do so today, he won’t anymore, more is the pity. Why would that be? It gets nothing done, and is salt in an already gapping & festering wound that is Synod wide & PERSONAL TO US. Not one person on this article has mentioned the GREAT DEBATE (ELCA) that is going on in Minneapolis this week. BW left ELCA because of their Biblical downgrade, well, what about ours? (LCMS) & what is LCMS going to do if it passes? We are in fellowship with ELCA now, (like we didn’t know this all before ELCE,etc.) will we continue or not? Do we think current LCMS BOD/PRES will leave communion with ELCA (& their power, numbers, & funds)? Right now, I see the same roundabout with confessionals as I see with the liberal set in the LCMS. In order to win any battle, those who fight, must be of one mind (LIKE MINDED) and present a BIBLICAL (UNITED) FRONT. Does this discussion seem that in any way, shape or form? Has anyone asked why members of LCMS are leaving HER to go to WELS? Debate is great as long as it is CONSTRUCTIVE NOT DESTRUCTIVE OR DEFLECTIVE. Can we please stay on task, most of the discussion here, is not helpful,(at best), if not hurtful to what we all pray to see happen within our Synod!
We are one of three families, who were ratified in our new WELS congregation, who departed the LCMS. (One from one congregation posted in the Willow Creek article) Why?!
For the same reasons BW left the ELCA. We left because there was little to nothing we could do to stave the tide,(yes, we did try & were almost denied a peaceful release for it) and with kids coming up for confirmation this year, we had to leave our beloved LCMS, to ensure their BIBLICAL INSTRUCTION & to ensure Biblical preaching & teaching for our family. This is ETERNAL LIFE AT STAKE HERE FOLKS, not some obtuse debate! Why do WE still care? Because both our entire families still reside within the LCMS. They read this site, they see what is said, and wonder, who is going to DO instead of TALK? Postings here suggest getting a Pastor to preside over a homebound church, (w/o pay mind you), or drive over an hour (fine if you live somewhere that has no winter) and the like. What I see here, and Johannes & Steven Bobb illuded to, is correct, that is the best you can do? That is the best you can advise us?
Some of you are in the position of DIVINE CALLING, you are held to a much HIGHER STANDARD, and will be held to that by our Lord. I pray, that you take that, with much more weight & gravity than I have seen here today. His lambs, are loaned to all of the pastors & laity who write here, please, I beg of you, remember the responsibility you bear, by His Word, regarding us all. He has, does, and will, and so do we all. Be of great courage and bravery, He who is greater, has overcome the world, and knows His own!
I wonder, do those who have made these type of comments know His lambs who sit opposite?

Not one person on this article has mentioned the GREAT DEBATE (ELCA) that is going on in Minneapolis this week. BW left ELCA because of their Biblical downgrade, well, what about ours? (LCMS) & what is LCMS going to do if it passes? We are in fellowship with ELCA now, (like we didn’t know this all before ELCE,etc.) will we continue or not? Do we think current LCMS BOD/PRES will leave communion with ELCA (& their power, numbers, & funds)? Right now, I see the same roundabout with confessionals as I see with the liberal set in the LCMS. In order to win any battle, those who fight, must be of one mind (LIKE MINDED) and present a BIBLICAL (UNITED) FRONT. Does this discussion seem that in any way, shape or form?

Dutch, you seem to have missed the point: what you have posted was my point.

The LCMS will not be ‘saved’ by any lowest common denominator false unity that e.g., views membership in STS as fine and dandy.

As to anonymity: there is no debate…when it is used to throw out false accusations, it is evil; in the very, very few instances where it is necessary for personal safety, it is acceptable.

There is, really, nothing that you have said here in #31 that wasn’t already said in #4.

EJG

Pastor Stefanski,

You & I have debated here (BJS) before, so I will temper my words. With the respect your office holds, you seem to have a rather narrow scope of who comments here and why, anonymity is necassary for those who may use it. If the BJS would mandate true identity, then they would do so. That, sir, is not up to you, but to those who run this site!
You are in a position, where you have the ability to use your name, Lord be praised, some here can’t. Some may be involved or employed by Synod, some may be employed by Co.’s, who REQUIRE IT, sir. Do please think on others first, if possible, it is what we are taught to do, is it not?

No, it did NOT escape me that this was discussed prior, but, the waters were muddied rather quickly, I wager! I, again, stand by what I said, and again I ask:

IS THAT THE ADVICE YOU HAVE AND THE BEST YOU CAN DO?

I & mine have departed, as did you, apparently, so again I ask, what is to be DONE, not, SPOKEN of, sir, what is it that will be done to defend what is HIS, what those who hold the Divine Office & have been entrusted with, will do to preserve what is HIS? That, Pastor, includes my children, husband, family, and myself.

You seem to be fond of odious debate, but, I seem to be lacking in the understanding as to what you intend to…DO. Monday morning quarterbacks, are famous for their comments & critique, but it is very different game that is played ON THE FIELD, Pastor. Your advice is what exactly? Your direction, to which you will be held to, by the Lord, on my & my sisters & brothers behalf…is what, exactly?

Stewing a pot is one thing, sir, but taking it off the burner, is quite another. Since January, I have read, your writings, one by one, on this & that, but have seen little of your ideas as to how we should go about REDIRECTING BACK TO HIM WHO HAS MADE US. No Pastor, has a vocation, nor Divine Office, Pastor Stefanski, if those within your folds depart, as many, such as I have done. I & WE, His lambs, sir, are LOANED TO YOU, entrusted, with a SACRED TRUST, BY THE LORD HIMSELF. Why is it, your comments on this article, and many others, bristle so many & forget that trust? Could it be that you, may have forgotten what, the Lord requires of the office in which you hold? As has, the Synod we speak so much of here?

Your answers to the questions posed here, are what exactly?
I do make again, the prayerful appeal, to think on & remember those who are taught to depend on those behind the pulpit. THINK ON, REMEMBER, AND DEFEND THOSE UPON THE OPPOSING SIDE OF YOUR/THE PULPIT. Our ETERNAL LIVES, are at stake, and that pales in comparison, to anything the world can through at us. It is YOU ALL, which hold that blessed office, that are held to account for it…and for those who depend on that office.

Dear Dutch,

While Pr. Stefanski is certainly most capable of defending himself, I have to say that I think you are way off base in your comments here. You give the impression that Pr. Stefanski merely desires to stir the pot, throw accusations around, and then run for the hills. Nothing could be further from the truth. He has written and spoken extensively on what he believes we confessional Lutherans need to DO, and he has justly called us to repentance time and time again for our unwillingness to do what needs to be done. Which is to say that your description of him is more than a little off, in my humble opinion. He is just not the person you’re making him out to be, and his voice should be welcomed by we who consider ourselves confessional Lutherans.

And, I could not possibly agree with him more about anonymous posters who use anonymity to hurl false and slanderous accusations, etc. That is, most assuredly, nothing but evil.

In Christ,
Pr. Messer

Pr Messer,
With the utmost of respect to you and those who hold the Divine Office, and to those should this be the case for, per the anon, it would, behove BJS to state so on the header of this site. I will not debate the Divine Office. I do not hold it, thought I do know what it is and is not.

But, for all that has been written, no answer to the questions that were posed, have truthfully been answered.
Which is eternally important, anonymity or echt preaching & teaching& Divine Office? Shepherding or debate? Again, I must ask…

WHAT ARE THOSE WITHIN THIS FLOCK TO DO?

The anon is rather a inconsequencial question, so what is that answer to that pointed SOUL ETERNAL QUESTION I POSED?
If I or those who search here for answers, do not find one, we, by command are told to depart. So again,

I ASK, WHAT IS IT YOU WOULD HAVE US DO?

Dear Dutch,

I’d be happy to answer any questions you ask and will do so to the best of my ability. I’m just not sure what you are asking. “What is it you would have us do?” is rather generic. Do about what? What answers are you searching for here? Please be a little more specific.

In Christ,
Pr. Messer

Dutch, RE: What to do?

1 Corinthians 1:10. If that fails, Romans 16:17.

Dirt simple. (Most ‘on our side’ in Missouri will disagree.)

EJG

1 Cor.1:10-
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
Romans 16:17-
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

ISN’T THIS THE QUESTION I POSED HERE? As I have done so, according what I was instructed & learned.

Yes, Pastor S, it is that dirt simple!! So BW (ELCA), and those of us, who have chosen to depart the LCMS, for the same reasons as BW (ELCA), have done exactly what you advised. For that, I do thank you Pastor S!! However, I shant forget my family, brothers & sisters, for what ere the reason may be, for those who chose to remain with the LCMS. Those who are chosen to fight, must do so, those who are chosen to leave, or speak the truth of thus, must also do so. But as we here, those who chose to comment, whatever our lot, what is it, we are to defend, if not that which has been loaned to us? I & mine have spoken out, counseled those who choose to stay,in some LCMS churches-(HCLC) see W.C. article-(if one can call them LCMS), but…the pointed fact remains, IS IT WHAT IS SAID OR MOST IMPORTANTLY, NOT SAID, FROM THE PULPIT THAT COUNTS? I am just a lamb, whom is dependant on those charged with my care!

Again, I beseech the question, what is it that I, a pew sitter, should say or do in the face of such a formitable foe, as we now face? If those, who hold that Sacred Office, cannot agree, how can I, a pitiful excuse, advise anyone else? I cannot, I may know, but can say or effect nothing. I, can speak out, but am only & asked simply to stand. In spite and dispite what’ere may befall. Can that be said of those who have a voice & a choice in our Synod? Or is speech all we rest upon? My soul, my eternal life, is more important than any Synod, district, congregation, or Pastor. I would pray it would be so to those who are charged to care & shepherd those like me, those who sit opposite those who are called to preach.
Is this so much to ask here? I pray not. Is it not to which those who hold that office were called?
For such as I?
I do care, though I have departed, if I did not, I would not read, let alone comment on this site. It is a wicked foe we fight, not us (LCMS) alone, but all of His church. He said it would come, we can say nothing to dispute this. So, those to whom have been gifted with the office, what is it, you would have us, mere lambs do?
Bear in mind, this is no odious debate, this is life, eternal life, that hangs in the balance.
So is the charge & office. I envy you not, but, rejoice in the knowing.

However, I shant forget my family, brothers & sisters, for what ere the reason may be, for those who chose to remain with the LCMS.

Just be prepared to be condemned when you express your love for them, told that you have no right to comment, etc.

Again, I beseech the question, what is it that I, a pew sitter, should say or do in the face of such a formitable foe, as we now face? If those, who hold that Sacred Office, cannot agree, how can I

They can agree, but the refuse to do so, as it is too painful. I have trouble believing that anyone cannot see why it is wrong to belong to a group that recognizes ‘female clergy’ as such…but the BJS Quarterly editor will not likely change his position, nor will he be (officially) told that he must…and, thus, instead of true unity, false unity is fostered.

At the same time, I think some will rise up who will not allow such things. They will be the ‘doers’ in this war…if the others will ‘let’ them.

I do care, though I have departed, if I did not, I would not read, let alone comment on this site. It is a wicked foe we fight, not us (LCMS) alone, but all of His church. He said it would come, we can say nothing to dispute this. So, those to whom have been gifted with the office, what is it, you would have us, mere lambs do?

Insist on pure food. Insist on it not only for yourself, but for others, as well. Support those agencies that do actually support those who are willing to be beaten for the sake of preaching purely–such as The Augustana Ministerium, which physically supports pastors who are being ‘starved out’ for teaching the truth, etc. Keep commenting and encouraging every effort to teach–and to organize ‘politically’, so that the teaching may regain official status in the LCMS–and display for those who grow battle-weary that there is life outside of the Missouri Synod, and that ‘we’ do not in any way consider ourselves ‘superior’ to those who remain, but that we rejoice that the mercy of the Lord has allowed us to move on from unproductive fights with those with whom we are supposed to be “in fellowship.”

I hope the above is helpful to you.

EJG

The ELCA just adopted a statement on Human Sexuality. This statement conflicts with Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. We hope that many ELCA congregations/members will finally leave this heterodox body. At the same time, in addition to the same-sex approval statement, they have very serious doctrinal problems, including the very authority of Scripture. They do not believe that the Bible is “the inerrant Word of God.” Consequently, they have fallen away from the doctrines of Scripture and embrace, with five liberal protestant denominations, full altar and pulpit fellowship. They are in altar and pulpit fellowship with denominations that reject, among many other things, that Baptism saves and reject the real presence in the Lord’s Supper and reject that in the Lord’s Supper God comes to us “to forgive us all our sins.” These are not trivial matters that can be embraced under the flag of “loving our neighbor.” As some of you have correctly emphasized, for any members who may come to the LCMS a thorough instruction is essential or the seeds of doctrinal diversity will grow and your congregation will suffer for it. May God grant us wisdom and knowledge, compassion and hope, as we minister to all in need of the Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord.

As an LCMS member who is considering leaving the LCMS church this discussion is certainly helping in pushing me out the door.

I grew up in California, my father was an Episcopal Priest who fought against the liberal leadership. I watched him attacked for defending the Scriptures. It is so sad to see the same thing happen to the ELCA and I do fear the same will eventually come to the LCMS if something doesn’t change.

Discussion is good, debate is good as seen here on this blog – but when stepping back and looking at what was said here I feel as if there is so much fodder that the Glory of God and the beauty of His Church is lost. Yes, I understand you are fighting for good … but will the fight bring what you seek? The cracks in the armor are already there by way of leadership.

Can you tell me why I should not leave the LCMS for the Orthodox Church? Can you tell me what the LCMS will believe in when my children are 40 years old? It is time to return to the ancient roots of the church – be that the Lutheran or other … for what our sinful souls are creating is not good – you only have to look at the ELCA convention for the evidence.

In Christ,
KB

Kristen,

We can also say this much: The Orthodox Church is not heaven on earth. If you seek to avoid the battles of the faith by going there, then I’m afraid you will be sadly disappointed. Or your children & their children will be sadly disappointed for all these battles will eventually come to the Orthodox Church. If they aren’t feeling the heat of the world’s sinful culture pressing on them to conform right now, then they will in future.

In the end, it matters not whether the LCMS or any other church body comes or goes, for the Lord will still have His church & it will be founded on the clear preaching & teaching of His Word & Sacraments.

Peace to you.

We can also say this much: The Orthodox Church is not heaven on earth…If they aren’t feeling the heat of the world’s sinful culture pressing on them to conform right now, then they will in future.

More to the point: they are already as screwed up as the ELCA is when it comes to the Gospel itself. How would it be faithful to give up “the article upon which the Church stands or falls”–justification by grace through faith–in order to get a more churchly outward structure?

It is never faithful to join the EO, the RCC, and so on; for all the things they do right, they overthrow the one thing that matters above all else. (And, yes, they will be dishonest with you about what they believe and how it differs from what Lutherans confess from God’s Word.)

The only reason to leave a Lutheran body is to become ‘more Lutheran’–i.e., to practice the faith of the Confessions more faithfully.

EJG

Eric,

I was trying to be gentle.

But yes, you are right.

Kristen–

It is a heavy and sad thing to leave one’s congregation, let alone the entire denomination. Those whom I know who have left the ELCA did not do it easily or readily. They struggled with the decision, often for several years. As one who left my congregation after half a lifetime, I know. It was necessary for my spiritual and emotional well-being, but it was an agonizing decision.

Yet I would caution against leaving the LCMS, for anything but a more confessional/conservative Lutheran body (and they are not without their issues). One could hardly call the Orthodox religion a truly orthodox denomination: that is, one truly in conformity with scripture. Will you pray to the Virgin Mary and to the saints if you join? One cannot pick and choose which doctrines one prefers, kind of compartmentalizing their faith. The LCMS is deeply troubled and flawed, but I for one, do not believe that politics alone will bring us back to true orthodoxy. The LCMS still has a lot going for it, however, and I would hope that you could find an LCMS congregation not too distant where the Gospel is purely preached and the sacraments rightly administered.

Thank you for your kind comments Johannes. It is agonizing leaving a church you grew up in – let along having your own Father as the Priest.

I am not defending the Orthodox Church, however I would say some people on this blog are not very educated on what Orthodox believe.

I would question if you could defend the LCMS on their short comings? I often wonder why we accept putting Christ’s blood in a plastic cup and then throw it in the garbage?

Why is there a “jumbo-tron” in my church and why is it BIGGER than the cross above the alter?

Does the high-tech sound system for the rock band that goes with the jumbo-tron suppose to ADD to my spiritual experience? Is this the God-centered church we should support?

The list goes on – but this is all such a difficult thing for me to do. I have never blogged before … don’t like it after doing it. Perfection does not exist in this world, but we should no better than to go down this road after witnessing the ELCA example.

Thank you again for your comments. Searching for the right answers is difficult but this is worth it.

Kristen @ #41,

You have made some good points which also have raised some additional questions in my mind and I hope a pastor or two could provide answers to.

My first question is rather simple, are laymen members of congregations or members of the synod in the LC-MS? I really don’t know, since when I joined my congregation I don’t recall joining the synod.

The next few questions I am asking arises from the first and certain assumptions about answers which can be provided to that question. Namely, if a layperson is a member of a congregation, and not the LC-MS, should they leave a congregation where the pastor is rightly teaching the word and faithfully delivering the sacraments; upholding both scripture and our Lutheran confession?

If a layperson is a member of the LC-MS, then how does one go about leaving membership in the synod while not removing support to a faithful pastor and congregation?

Finally, and I don’t desire to offend anyone with the following comment/rhetorical question, but… at what point do we laymen and pastors refuse to “cut and run” and instead remain to fight? Where do we draw the line and stand firm? Indeed, why should I surrender the LC-MS to the liberals?

After watching part of the ELCA convention I was amazed by the cavalier way they voted on God’s truths and not a single person stood up to say such voting is sinful.

My heart is heavy today as I pray that God give us all repentant hearts, since I don’t want to be one standing in front of God and others supporting the doctrine of demons someday, as I viewed some do while watching the ELCA live feed of their convention.

The context of the following question I ask above is leaving a faithful congregation because of its association with the LC-MS:

“Namely, if a layperson is a member of a congregation, and not the LC-MS, should they leave a congregation where the pastor is rightly teaching the word and faithfully delivering the sacraments; upholding both scripture and our Lutheran confession? “

Wrt EO: I’m certain I could learn more about them, just as with anything else. However, the fact is that they reject the Bible’s teaching on justification. They make a great show of not doing so, and those Lutherans whom they convert (the pastors, especially, such as Fenton and Hogg) head east saying tha they’re not giving up the chief teaching of the Church…and then later they prove that they’ve thrown it over altogether, too.

Can I defend the squirrelly practice of the LCMS? No, and I won’t. I say what I’ve said for the past 20 years: fight this stuff or leave.

To move into Mr. Pierce’s questions: Since you are, indeed, NOT a member of the LCMS, but of the congregation, you’re in a little different position…but, by your membership in a congregation of the LCMS you are in fellowship with everyone else in the LCMS (even though there are pastors who will pretend that reality isn’t real and tell you otherwise). Thus, the question is: “Are you supporting the progress of your pastor and congregation in fighting the LCMS’s errors and/or leaving, or are you just in a perpetual fellowship with error?” Different people in different situations will have different answers. I think the fuzziness that now seems to surround these questions, however, will become crystal clear to a great many more of you in the course of the next four years.

The main thing: as long as you have a faithful pastor, make it clear to him that you will support him in being faithful, even if that means supporting him as he leaves the LCMS. If everyone in the parish does this, his boldness will grow and, at the same time, be more and more tempered by love, as he knows he’s not just ‘hanging out there’ on his own (i.e., with only him and an ‘unseen Jesus’).

One of the most important parts of this support is affirming him in steadfastly and openly declaring false teachers (by name) to have severed fellowship with the parish. (Then, when he is kicked out of the synod for saying that, everything instantly comes clear.)

That’s as far as I’ll speak at this point, as I’m pretty sure I’ve already offended my quota of people for the day.

EJG

Kristen: Thank you for your reply. Re: the LCMS’ shortcomings, I won’t even try to defend them. I have never thought of the plastic cup business, but I suspect more knowledgeable people than I have thought about it, and have some cogent answers.
I don’t know what a “Jumbro-tron” is, but I suspect it’s a screen. A screen in the sanctuary/nave means that the medium will soon become the message, if it hasn’t already. It means entertainment, not worship. It has undoubtedly, a dumbing down effect on the worshipper. It is, in my opinion, an abomination. Period.
Re: the sound system and rock band–well, all I can do is offer my sympathies. It gives you another reason to want to leave, and I can’t blame you.
I assume you have tried to express your objections to what is going on in your congregation. I did that for several years, too, and became tired of being the resident “agin-er.” As I look back on things in my former life, perhaps I should have been much more strident and vociferous in my objections to whatever was going on. Perhaps yelling and screaming might have been more effective. Perhaps a little fear might have done some good. I don’t know. I can say that Pr. Stefanski makes a good point–fight this stuff or leave. But again, I repeat–I hope you can stay in the LCMS–someplace.

Johannes, thank you again for your reply and for caring enough to want my family to stay in the LCMS. I have been through the “fight” before being an Episcopalian – I will never forget sitting across the desk from a Priest asking him if he performed same-sex unions at his church and thinking “this is so absurd, am I really asking this?”. I was trying to pick and choose my way through churches to find one that was suitable. Again … absurd. Do I want my kids to do this too?

it is interesting to note that the recent changes made in my congregation occurred shortly after a large group of ELCA members joined our LCMS parish. I do believe our Pastor is a good man but the pressure put on him to “liven up” our worship was heavy.

There is hope and reason to fight, leaving is the easy thing to do. I just would like to know if there is a majority of Pastors within the LCMS who will fight for the preservation of Scripture and Sacrament. Laymen can voice objections and made persuasive arguments but unless there is a strong, committed majority of Pastors who do the same we will continue to get large, flat screen TV’s in the sanctuary. And that CHANGES the church for my children and grandchildren.

It is a heavy burden to put on Pastors, – they will play a large role of what is to come as ELCA members trickle into their pews.

What’s done is done – we can not go back. But let’s hope for the future and do our part to defend Scripture and the Sacraments. Thanks again.

KB

Kristen– I’m sure it is very difficult for a pastor to fight the “liven up” worship. There are lots of pressures. I think many pastors have not thought thru the implications of screens, praise bands, etc., perhaps because they have not thought thru just what happens in worship (yeah, I know–hard to believe.). Some of the growth programs that synod is pushing–NCD and TC–encourage
culture-friendly worship–that also makes things difficult.
The majority of LCMS pastors is probably faithful to Word and Sacrament ministry, but it depends where you look.

I hope you can sit across the table from your pastor and spell things out in plain english, firmly, unequivocally, and lovingly. If you can’t get anywhere, it is my prayer that you can find a “faithful” LCMS pastor & congregation.

Pr. Stefanski,

Thank you for tackling my questions. You failed to offend me, so you might not have filled your quota.

I just would like to know if there is a majority of Pastors within the LCMS who will fight for the preservation of Scripture and Sacrament.

I was a pastor in the LCMS for 16 years. My observations during that time tell me that the answer to your question is a resounding “No.”

There are some good pockets…such as the tiny Wyoming District…but even the other ‘good districts’ in the LCMS are far from good, far from united.

On the other hand, Missouri is not the only Lutheran body there is, and there are hundreds of ‘displaced’ solid Confessional Lutheran pastors who would be thrilled to work at your local Wal-Mart while starting a truly Lutheran mission (instead of working at their local Wal-Mart wondering why ‘God is through’ with them).

If there is no faithful congregation where you live, it’s time to start one.

EJG

Thank you for tackling my questions. You failed to offend me, so you might not have filled your quota.

This isn’t the only place I posted.

EJG

Rev. Stefanski,

Do you have any suggestions about how to go about connecting these people who can’t find confessional pastors with confessional pastors who are ready for a call?

Do you have any suggestions about how to go about connecting these people who can’t find confessional pastors with confessional pastors who are ready for a call?

The Augustana Ministerium would be a good place to start. I would also humbly suggest contacting the superintendent of The Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America, the Rev. James Heiser.

EJG

Why are conservatives seeking personal justification through condemnation of others? Is it that it is too hard to follow all the laws of the bible, so you look to easy things that do not affect you? Jesus speaks of love, kindness, and humbleness… and if I am not mistaken, Jesus is in the bible too… as well as some crazy laws about how to eat meat… why not follow those. Hate is such an easy emotion… and Satan constantly temps us to overlook love and doing the work of Christ with hatred of people whom we judge are different.

But joining the LCMS does not mean that your ELCA church has to abandon contemporary worship services. My LCMS church offers two Sunday services: 8:00 traditional, and 10:45 mixed (In a mixed service, traditional hymns alternate with contemporary hymns led by a praise band. The projector also runs during contemporary services.)

Are “Worship wars” a part of the problem in the LCMS. Can an LCMS church hold contemporary services, yet remain confessional in doctrine??

What do you propose to stem the decline in LCMS membership? My thoughts are that most former LCMS Lutherans have chosen to listen to “pastor pillow” give a sermon on Sunday mornings. How do you get the newly unchurched to return?

I was baptized and confirmed in the LC-MS. We left. Years ago our AELC church and others were assured the LCA liberals would not out vote the moderates of the AELC and ALC. BUT IT HAPPENED! I am shocked and appaled (as well as embaressed). I surmize I will return to the LC-MS sooner than later. Sin is sin and calling it natural or normal or alternative does NOT change that. I still love the LUTHERAN CHURCH-MISSOURI SYNOD! I remember some from the Lutheran Church in America referin to the LCMS as “the big bad Missouri Synod. Keep holding on to the Truth. I’ve visited my old church over the years and Immanuel Lutheran is sorta like going home. Probably home again. I don’t have to be anonymous, you can publish me if you want.

I think the only law of God that the synod of the Elca holds firm to now days is the law of tithing. The church is obviously being led by a hierarchy that wants the best places at the feast for themselves and has little regard for addressing the word of God through the Bible. The ELCA is a hollow shell with no substance. It is a supper club with a steeple. It stands for nothing and to be associated with it is now the height of nothingness. I no longer want people to associate me with the ELCA or its leaders. This is very hard when I am still a member of my church and when that church is a member of the ELCA.

It is very important that individuals stay firm to their own beliefs on this matter and do not conform to the ELCA. Do not fund the ELCA with your dollars and do rest until the matter is resolved. If your church’s answer is to leave the ELCA support the departure. If your Church remains with the ELCA elect board members who will fight them bitterly! I can think of no greater honor today than to be thrown out of the ELCA. STAY WITH YOUR LOCAL CHURCH, BE VOCAL, AND DO NOT ACCEPT “POLITICALLY CORRECT” EDICTS FROM A HIERARCHY THAT CARES ONLY TO CLIMB THE LADDER IN THEIR HIERARCHY. DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR SUPPORT!!!!!!!

“Sin is sin and calling it natural or normal or alternative does NOT change that.”
Your current pastors are without sin? No wonder they’re so quick to cast those stones: Jesus commanded them to. It’s a tough burden that the sinless carry, but what else can they do?

@Darryl #63

> Your current pastors are without sin?

Nobody is without sin except Jesus, but it is a sin to keep silent about public false doctrine.

That’s what any comments here on elca are about.

The admonitions are intended to lead to repentance/faith/everlasting life.