I just graduated from CSP and I can tell you that many of the church work students and a few of the pre-sem students do go quite often to The Alley.

This sounds like a good argument FOR term limits and AGAINST a 4-year convention cycle. The Task Force would have us adopt the opposite.

God gave us the book, How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must), by Ann Coulter, for a reason.

It seems that during the district convention discussions, Ann’s Rule No. 3 (p. 10) was completely ignored. (“You must outrage the enemy. If the liberal you’re arguing with doesn’t become speechless with sputtering, impotent rage, you’re not doing it right. People don’t get angry when lies are told about them; they get angry when the truth is told about them. If you are not being called outrageous by liberals, you’re not being outrageous enough. Start with the maximum assertion about liberals and then push the envelope, because, as we know, their evil is incalculable.”)

Here’s the lesson: the bull in the china shop approach does not work. Period. End of story.

“But I fear that sound bite theology prevails in our district.”

Sadly, “sound bite (fill in the blank)” prevails in our culture. It seems that most people don’t want to be bothered with depth; they just want pithy statements speaking to the “bottom line”. In my opinion, Confessionals will have to learn how to get a point across in a succinct, single, sentence when in a political arena such as a convention.

Klemet – I think you need to take responsibility for the way things were handled by the Board of Directors – which looked very heavy handed. You want to win the hearts and minds of MN South? You think you are correct in your conclusions on these various mission and liturgical issues? Then you had better figure out how to work together, instead of looking like you are just steam rollering the opposition.

Just my opinion – but I will guarantee you – it wasn’t the opposition’s political machinations which won the day – it was your BOD’s handling of the issues which turned so many people off.

We need to figure out how to harness the passions of both sides – because we are stronger working together.

As much as I grin when I read Coulter, she’s only half right, and a half-truth is a whole lie. While putting together a succinct, pithy, and cogent position statement, we must remember that this is done out of love. Absolutely, we need to let these heretics feel the weight of God’s law. The goal is repentance, not outrage. If the opponent gets mad, they won’t be able to hear law or gospel over the sound of their own self-righteous anger. The blinders go on and the Synagogue of Satan gets the “W.”

May God heal our broken communion through Jesus Christ, our Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Did anyone transcribe some of the dialogue or debate or whatever from this convention? I want to get some idea of how the confessional/”missional” comparison is cast. We know where we stand, and what distinctions to make about ourselves, but it is also important to know what words the opposition uses to describe us, and what loaded words are used to cast us as the “enemy”.

This is why I can’t possibly imagine a scenario whereby confessionals “retake” the LCMS. American culture is too much against it for it to be possible. But how I wish I could realistically imagine such a scenario!

Bethany Tanis

I was the voting lay delegate for University Lutheran Chapel, Minneapolis at the MNS convention – Pr Preus’ comments are spot on, as are Pr Rossow’s (I too was resoundingly not elected, but then I am an unknown, identifiable as a confessional only by my congregation). But beyond Pr Rossow’s comment “you hear their ranting about passion, revolution, dynamism and the like, you can’t help but realize that the synod is being directed by teenagers who have yet to fully grow up,” a predominant element at the convention was the level of emotionalism from the liberals that spewed forth and flooded the hall. Emotionalism that trumped any theology, emotionalism that held up Pentecostalism as a “role model” for building Christendom, emotionalism that reveled in and focused on counting numbers. And all of this with the rather blatant approval and praise of the MNS DP. As Pr Preus mentions, the vote on TheAlley came immediately after DP Seitz’s presentation, SP Kieschnick was sitting on the right of the hall and his grin at the result of the vote was from ear to ear! I am sure there will be others more eloquent, perceptive and knowing than me that will comment on this MNS convention, but the election results from this convention may have substantial implications for my congregation; prior to the convention a suggestion was floated to sell the University Lutheran Chapel property (it is owned by the district) – thankfully men such as Pr Preus, as a Board member, halted this move, but now there appears to be none elected in the MNS district that would support a confessional campus ministry. Pray for us.

Pastor Preus:

What a sadly delusional bit of sour grapes your account of our District’s recent convention is; but it comes as no surprise to me that you got “clobbered”, if these are your true perceptions of what happened.

A more honest assessment of why you and your colleagues were defeated at the recent convention is hardly a mystery, and quite obvious to all those who have been paying attention; hence your defeat. The majority of the Board, and those within the Nomination Committee, lost the confidence of the District because of their ham fisted attempts to run rough shot over our District, usurp powers that were not their own, spread misinformation and exaggerations about the Alley Lutheran Church, and throttle all discussion and input from anyone you deemed lacking in Doctrinal purity…by your standards.

Your Board representatives reported demonstrably false information about the Alley Lutheran, after only three members of your group (two of them lay people) visited the church for a grand total of 5 times; and without ever engaging Pastor Griffin or the congregation to gage a sincere impression of their beliefs I would point out; and in doing so, worked to block new souls being brought to Christ through our Church. I fail to see how this can be considered Lutheran.

The majority on the BoD acted against Synod direction regarding guidelines regarding LSB use, and the acceptability of other doctrinally approved materials.

The Majority, along with its allies, also waged an ethically questionable political campaign to over ride the wishes of District Delegates by trying to mislead them, as you have done again here; including who it was exactly who stood in opposition to your heavy-handed efforts.

The group, Mission Vision, included almost fifty signatories by the time of the convention, as you pointed out. What you didn’t tell your readers is that in the last email sent out by you and your colleagues, your own support had shrunk from a high of sixteen pastors down to seven pastors and one lay Board member. Also, I find it telling that you would try and dismiss these efforts, at least in part, of the Pastors and lay members working as Mission Vision by awkwardly pointing out that many of the initial members were “mostly retired guys”, as it clearly points out your own hubris. What kind of a man simply dismisses the lifetime of service and accumulated knowledge of his brothers in Christ so frivolously Pastor Preus?

Your false accusations that the participants of Mission Vision “took rather complex issues and turned them into simplistic, if inaccurate sound bites.” is also frankly disturbing, as it became quite obvious to a large voting majority of our 2009 District Convention Pastor Preus that “simplistic” and “inaccurate sound bites” were clearly the forte of yourself and the reactionary member of your own political organization, not Mission Vision; and you paid the price for it.

I know from my own personal experience that Mission Vision members went the extra mile to be open and transparent in their actions; even going so far as including a link to this very website so that delegates would have access to as much information as possible in making the difficult decisions they were called upon to make; a courtesy that you and your colleagues never bothered to reciprocate.

Also, while this is not the forum for such matters, I can earnestly testify that the behind scenes actions and correspondences to and toward the members of Mission Vision were anything but constructive, let alone “Lutheran”.

Finally, and most emphatically, I must state that President Seitz was neither involved directly or indirectly in any of the efforts put forth by Mission Vision or those that united to right the direction of our District and restore a true Christian Vision to our mission, and your protestations that you were unable to articulate a “theological “argument, or that you were simply overwhelmed by some inability to “disagree with a popular incumbent” in President Seitz is hogwash.

You end by writing Pastor that, “I write this on June 13 so advantage of a couple of weeks of reflection is lacking.” I would suggest that before you and your colleagues cocoon yourselves into hibernation for another three years and begin feverishly making your plans for your next crusade to save our District, you stop and talk to, and truly listen to, your fellow MNS members to hear what they are saying. Then, and only then, would I encourage you to begin your reflection; who knows, perhaps you may even begin to understand that you alone do not have all of the answers for what is best for our District, and that just possibly our Lord has plans of His own for the future direction His Church should take.

I sincerely pray so Pastor.

A good Marquart quote in this regard:
http://augsburg24.blogspot.com/2009/05/democracy-doctrine-heresy-and.html

I’d say, let’s run the course through the 2010 convention, but if it flops, be done with “just wait until the next convention.” It’s time for a new synod if 2010 is a failure. No more hitting the snooze button.

“Whether our Synod gains friends or makes enemies, wins honor or invites disgrace, grows or declines in numbers, brings peace or incites enmity, all this must be unimportant to us-just so our Synod may keep the jewel of purity of doctrine and knowledge. However, should our Synod ever grow indifferent toward purity of doctrine, through ingratitude forget this prize, or betray or barter it away to the false church, then let our church body perish and the name Missourian decay in disgrace.”
-C.F.W. Walther, First Sermon Delivered at the Opening of Synod,
1 Corinthians 1:4-5

“St. Peter prohibits the bishops to rule as if they had the power to force the churches to do whatever they desired [1 Peter 5:2]. Now the question is not how to take power away from the bishops. Instead, we desire and ask that they would not force themselves into sin. But if they will not do so and despise this request, let them consider how they will have to answer to God, since by their obstinancy they cause division and schism, which they should rightly help to prevent.”
+ Augsburg Confession, Article XXVIII,76-78 +

“…All this evidence makes clear that the church retains the right to choose and ordain ministers. Consequently, when bishops either become heretical or are unwilling to ordain, the churches are compelled by divine right to ordain pastors and ministers for themselves. Moreover, the cause of this schism and dissension is to be found in the ungodliness and tyranny of bishops, for Paul warns that bishops who teach and defend false doctrine and impious forms of worship are to be considered accursed.”
+ Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, The Power and Jurisdiction of Bishops,72 +

The reluctance of some congregations to use the term Lutheran may just be truth in advertising. If these congregations are seen by synod as the future of the church then perhaps the proposal from the BRTFSSG to change the name would be appropriate. To drop Lutheran from LCMS may be not only helpful for marketing but honest as well.

To have communion only 12 times a year is appalling. The means of grace should be central to worship, not pushed to the back burner. They go even farther than restricting to only one kind, they have none at all most of the time.

Depending on how future elections go and how well educated those in the church become such may well be the future of the synod but the truth is more important than the synod if it comes to that.

What I find most disheartening about the whole situation is the apparent lack of sound teaching to so many people. To deprive them of the means of grace and a proper distinction between law and gospel may be “missional” and “cutting edge” but it also puts their spiritual well being at risk.

I’m sure indulgences were seen as missional and cutting edge innovations at one time. There was even a logic to it, if penance is required for absolution and penance is work then why not accept money which represents work they have already done. It is of greater benefit to the church and easier for the individual. I’m sure it even made for easy counting of souls saved. If money can be accepted as work done for penance then why not work done to help someone else out, a deceased relative or child, why not for future sins which we are bound to commit? It was seen as justifiable considering their understanding of confession and absolution but it denied any grace and the worth of Christ’s sacrifice. Doctrine was sacrificed for numbers at the expense of peoples’ souls.

It could be argued that the current compromises made in congregations are relatively minor with respect to salvation. I think at best they can be seen as unhelpful and potentially dangerous. At worst they can be against scripture putting at risk the Gospel and the salvation of congregants. Much depends on the particular issue. With the breadth of modern Christendom and the potential for salvation in other denominations one could argue that this congregation or that congregation is at some basic level at least Christian, but it seems easy to show that some practices are not in line with the understanding of scripture as described in the Book of Concord and therefore not Lutheran.

In America they are free to worship as they choose but to be a part of a Lutheran synod without actually being Lutheran is deceptive. If they do not even want to admit to being Lutheran then why join a Lutheran synod? While there have been other Lutheran synods that do not require Lutheran doctrine to be preached in congregations the LCMS had been good in that respect. If the synod continues in this direction much longer I fear the poison will have run too deep. It may take a synod-wide purge of false teaching to restore a confessional church. Such a purge would be dangerous, invasive, difficult to properly supervise and hard to justify with congregations being in charge. With the numbers against confessionals I doubt it would even be viable. I doubt confessionals would be purged since if nothing else they add to the overall numbers and doctrine isn’t viewed as important enough to get rid of them. If a synod is to be confessional and Christ-centered again it may need to be a new synod.

Whatever happens Christ’s church will endure despite what we do. He can take bad situations make them better than ever. No matter how bad things seem we can always trust that God will work it for the good of those who love him. The least we can do to help the synod is to pray for those who lead it astray. If debates and voting do not work we can still pray.

I appreciate the comment by Alex. God will continue His work. “Therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.” Col. 3:12-13.

May we surrender all to our Lord.

Dear Former Anglican,
Is there any chance of buying the chapel building from the district? I can’t claim to be impartial, but from the standpoint of Confessionalism in the LC-MS, I know of no other church that has sent so many solid young men off to our Sems, and no college ministry that has so throughly disproved the tired mantra of “young people need trendy worship” as the ULC on the Twin City Campus. Putting this resource outside the reach of Synodical/District politics would be a real coup for Confessional Lutherans everywhere.
Pax Christi+,
-Matt Mills,
(University of Minnesota, 1985)

As to the synod being directed by teenagers who have yet to fully grow up: I’m ok w/ the second part, but aren’t most of these guys aging hippies?
-Matt Mills

Now matter how old these people are, they’re still teenagers, mentally and emotionally and theologically. Sounds like JF is alive and well. The inmates have taken over the asylum!
People are ready to leave the ELCA over the homosexual issue, whic is “a done deal”, and the officialdom of the LCMS is leaving the real LCMS!!
It ain’t your grandfather’s church–it ain’t your father’s church–it ain’t even your church anymore!

I don’t see how the LCMS avoids a split. You can see the handwriting on the wall. This synod is deeply divided and at some point real soon we’re going to have to shake hands and politely part ways. There’s really no alternative.

LCMS, Inc. is bent on chasing after the world, trying to be all things to all people because they’re infected by church growth thinking. They’re jettisoning our entire heritage to in order to be what they consider ‘relevant’. In the end, they’re going to have an LCMS that is indistinguishable from the ELCA, PCUSA or any other mainstream liberal protestant denomination. They will be ordaining women pastors and non-celibate gay clergy within ten years.

It’s coming. I’m up against the Tiber at that point.

The difference between this Convention and ours in the OK District is striking. While we are no bastion of confessional Lutheranism (what District really is??) there is a near-complete lack of politicking here. Sometimes to the point of apathy, but regardless it is refreshing that pastors actually get along with one another. All of our circuits meet regularly together and no one boycotts worship. Not much substantial happens in the way of resolutions here, but not much negative happens either.

Also noteworthy is that the three VPs elected (two new, one incumbent) are fairly vocal confessional pastors in liturgical congregations. Our opening worship was DS III chanted. Not quite usual district fare, but not absurdly unusual. The BOD is likewise made up of some very confessional pastors.

Bethany,

You’re exactly right, I think. LCMS, Inc. is going the same direction as society. The parallels are obvious. Confessionals have no hope, in my view, of ever retaking the synod. People don’t want sound doctrine, in fact I can tell you by personal experience they don’t even want to hear words like “doctrine” (if they even know what it means at all).

The majority of the LCMS churches in my area are hellbent on becoming some kind of transmogrified, mutant, Baptist/Charistmatic, happy-clappy ‘fellowships’. What high church folks are left are high church liberals.

I reiterate that I don’t see any way out of this except a complete split in the LCMS with those who want to follow after their itching ears and all the Rob Bell, Emergent, Rick Warren, “purpose driven”, “deeds not creeds”, pseudo-Baptist garbage. You’re never going to drive them out because they outnumber us, just like the culture they so eagerly chase after. Our only alternative is going to be a complete split. I think that is becoming clear to more and more people by the day. It’s been clear to me for at least a couple of years.

“…People are ready to leave the ELCA over the homosexual issue, whic[h] is “a done deal”…”

Johannes – is this, in fact, a “done deal” in ELCA? I had heard that it was going to be an issue during their convention this Summer, but had not heard any results. However, even if it has been passed (to both ordain homosexuals as pastors as well as accept them into membership) it may not change things over there as much as we might think. We happened to run into an ELCA pastor a few years back at a wedding reception who turned out to be the husband of a woman who was a high school friend of one of my sisters 40+ years ago. During dinner at the reception this issue came up and he unabashedly supported the gay ordination.

Well, it turns out that the mother-in-law of my wife’s brother is a member of the congregation where this same man is the pastor. So, at a family get-together my wife asked this mother-in-law if she knew about her pastor’s position on same-sex relationships and ordination. Without hesitation she retorted back, “Well, he has his views, we have ours.” Sounds exactly like Nancy Pelosi, only in the opposite direction – tolerating the official position of their church at the synodical level and keeping their own views to themselves. This is NOT unity! They might as well just stay at home on Sunday morning. But it seems to prevail in ELCA congregations.

One of the things that struck me as most significant from this Winter’s BJS convention was when Todd spoke about how the Gospel moves in “small” ways, not big, bold, mega-ways. He gave specific examples of how the Gospels show that even Christ worked with people in small ways. It may soon get to the point in time where we simply have to accept that reality and move forward accordingly.

I gotta say, I am a bit tired of the blame constantly being lain at the feet of the young people. I’m not as young as I was four years ago, but I’m still immature enough to love video games and Starbucks. But it is not video games and Starbucks that are the problem here. It’s the 60′s. It’s still that tired, wasteful 60′s. You can find a few poster-children for the sixties from my generation, but they’re quite the odd ball.

The one thing I don’t understand – it really does boggle my mind – is why the administrations are so very much behind these types of things. This is institutional suicide. You’re going to flood 100′s of K’s of dollars into congregations that are made up of attendants from the local synodical school, AND base it on the model of congregations that have the worst trends in creating long-term Synodical giving? Huh? I mean, I don’t exactly disagree with the CG pastors who think giving to Synodical bureaucracy is bad stewardship – but the Synodical bureaucracy making those congregations model congregations is about as “C-” in leadership as you can get.

Whatever. I’m more and more of the realization that these chips are gonna fall. Let’s let ‘em. Those churches that take Lutheran off the sign will blend into the decay of the American western civil-charismatic-paganism. So be it. Let ‘em. By all means, speak to them. But don’t fool yourself into the error of thinking you can convert anyone by your passion. That’s they’re mistake.

Those who need the Sacramental graces of Christ will survive – the Rock will be here for our children. It might be without institution of big-building, DCE, career-pastor, retirement, etc. So be it. We will rise with Christ, even though we lose all here.

The MNS BOD resolution to require that mission congregations use LSB to receive funding was an overreach. It galvanized the left and polarized the mushy middle. That’s why you got your lunch handed to you. Years of work, all down the drain.

28 – Editor:

Why was it an overreach?

To “George in Wheaton.” Re: the homosexual issue in the ELCA. We had a family of visitors (3 generations) in our congregation a few weeks back, members of a sizeable ELCA cong. nearby, who were told by their pastor (publicly, I understand) that, for all practical purposes, homosexual ordination was, in his words, “A done deal.” So–it hasn’t passed yet, but nobody believes that it won’t. After several tries, they finally made it. Theology by the 51% vote. Anyway, these visitors loved the service, knew that they had been showered with the Gospel, and I am hopeful that we’ll see them again.

Gresham’s Law has not been repealed.

Johannes

Who needs a hymnbook, when you can write your own worship, and sing the same 20 praise songs for 10 or 12 years? And it’s a lot cheaper that way, too.

The posts in this thread amply demonstrate why what happened in MNS happened and why Missouri is a ‘lost cause’–especially the fact that a good number of pre-sem guys attend “The Alley.” [Because, no, St, Louis will no teach it out of them, not by any means. The graduate paper survey done on worship practices a couple of years ago absolutely shatters the 'old liberals are being replaced by young Confessionals' myth. Of course, it's hard to tell in Missouri, because the 'Confessionals' of today are advocating the same things that the liberals advocated in the 60s.]

Bauer, Tanis, and Lefty, above, make a lot of sense…but come late July of 2010, all we’ll hear is how ‘we won’ one resolution on Absolution, elected a couple of people, and need to organize better for 2014 (not 2013, because you’ll lose that vote, too…simple economics will win).

I was asked recently why those of us on the outside don’t seem to want to ‘look in’ more and do more to help Missouri. There are two main things: 1) it’s just plain easier (less painful) to look away, instead, and go about one’s own tending of the flock (or other area of vocation) God has given him charge of and 2) after a very short while it dawns on you that the only really helpful thing that you can say (the Bauer-Tanis-Lefty conclusion) simply leaves you being painted as lacking empathy, etc. But, people…2007 was the year to leave the LCMS…six years of Kieschnick was plenty to teach people what was going on. Now, folks will say that nine years hasn’t been enough…and then thirteen, and then…oh, but wait: ‘we’ will be winning again, because the guys I graduated with (the majority of whom are church growthers) will be running things.

I guess those two reasons are really just one, to a large extent.

EJG (the water’s fine)

Rev. Stefanski,

I have to say I agree with you. I see the writing on the wall for those of us in the LCMS who are bound by our consciences to remain in communion with other like minded Confessional Lutherans. I would be interested in learning more about your journey out of the LCMS and how one goes about finding a confessional congregation and congregation of congregations in his area.

I have not been to the Alley, it’s a bit far for me to check it out but… I have wondered why using “LCMS” in materials is so hard as well as using LSB. What I mean is this, fine use LCMS, say “The Alley, a member of the LCMS doing church differently” or “The Alley, not your father’s Lutheran church – LCMS” (Ha Ha!)… there can be a million variations. Same with LSB, use the LSB Builder (a fine resource… but also allows easy cut and paste) and throw in a few bits of Liturgy here and there, easiest on a Communion Sunday (sadly once a month) and you can say, “we are using LSB… see we use the builder”. Some may call this a bit sly, but what disturbs me is the bare minimum is so easy to do… why the seemly purposeful rejection of these things?

Read the LCMS Treasurer’s memo in the May LCMS Board of Director’s minutes.

It’s found on pages 138-141:

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/Board_Of_Directors/0905%20BOD%20Minutes.pdf

If we don’t want “churches” like The Alley funded by our offerings, then let’s try defunding this nonsense at the source, on both the synodical and district level.

TW

I believe it was an overreach because it PO’d the left enough to get them organized and kick booty. It may have made a valid point about Article VI, but it was made in a way that was obviously lost on the mushy middle, who voted with the left. Was this the only way to make that point? I don’t think so.

Gee, I forgot about the do-it-yourself creed. OK, here goes: “I believe in one god.” THen there’s the do-it-yourself confession, or “sin of the week,” as my wife calls it. All you do is pick out any sins found in the readings for that Sunday, enumerate them as sins the congregation has done or has omitted to do, and you’ve got it. There’s also a “rite of satisfactions.” It’s called Transforming Churches. Ask Scott Diekmann. You could look it up.

Based on what we’ve seen in the ELCA, people don’t leave their church very readily. It’s a hard thing to do–and altho there are undoubtedly many who are very alarmed at what is going on over there, they aren’t heading for the exits in droves.

THe Blue Ribbon (ugh, barf) Task force on Funding, etc., has invited the disgruntled among us to leave anyway. (You could look that up, too). You can thank one of our JF vice presidents for that. They don’t want them (us) around.
(BTW, Isn’t it time for a Paisley Ribbon Task Force, or a Puce Ribbon Task Force, or say a Yellow Task Force? I’m getting tired of Blue.)

They got the pastors by their pensions. So will they leave? Doubtful.

Editor,

“It galvanized the left, and polarized the mushy middle.”

So our doctrine, and our belief, and our practice isn’t anything objective – an objective truth that doesn’t change – as in *ever* – an objective truth from, say, those pesky things like scripture, or our confessions, or from the doctors and theologians of our five hundred year history, or the fifteen hundred year history of the fathers of the church catholic, before….it’s merely a subjective thing that is subject to the whim of the majority of the secularized culture chasers and Rick Warren adherents among us?

I’m a member of one of the last confessional churches in my geographical region. I left my former church because they were chasing rainbows and unicorns.

If the LCMS has gone off the deep end under the control of liberals pursuing church growth movement and other heresies, then the duty of the “loyal remnant” is to leave them and form a new synod.

If I didn’t have such a deep commitment to the Lutheran faith, and such deep disagreement with Rome on a few key points of doctrine, I’d already have crossed the Tiber by this point. In short, I’m fed up. I can’t stand seeing what is happening to the LCMS. And if the LCMS goes much farther I will join with Rome and be done with it. I would rather twiddle my thumbs and look skyward with a smirk and a wink, as they invoke Mary or Saints, in a reverent, orthodox, Catholic Church with good practice, than put up with the bad practice, irreverence, false doctrine and, lately, outright heresies, I see creeping into the LCMS from every direction.

The LCMS isn’t just in decline, it’s in free fall. And every one of us knows it if we’re being honest with ourselves. The only alternative I see is going to be a split, and forming a new synod. If you’re not to that point yet, in your thinking, give it a year or two, I guarantee you will be.

“Left Coast”, it’s true, we have our share of liberals, but I think it’s something else. Check out Klemet Preus’ PIETISM IN MISSOURI’S MISSION: FROM MISSION AFFIRMATIONS TO ABLAZE!
It’s in a recent 2009 issue of LOGIA (can’t remember which one). Or maybe you can talk Rev. Preus into sending it to you. Between that and David Adams’ “Three Missouri’s” or “Lutheran Evangelicals”, the picture is clearer.
Like I said, the inmates have taken over the asylum.

“… Based on what we’ve seen in the ELCA, people don’t leave their church very readily. It’s a hard thing to do–and altho there are undoubtedly many who are very alarmed at what is going on over there, they aren’t heading for the exits in droves …”

Yes, and a large part of this is because of what John Calvin called “Nicodemites;” i.e., like Nicodemus, who came to visit Jesus after dark so he was not likely to be seen, Calvin accused many who sympathized with the reformers, but continued church attendance and communion with the Papists for political, social, and domestic reasons.

And I suppose that it IS tough after having spent a lifetime in a congregation that was once faithful to Scripture, but has gone through more than a few mergers only to wind up being associated with a parent organization (I hesitate to call it synod because it defies the very meaning of that word) that generally either looks the other way or down right flies in the face of Truth.

Yet, we have 2 John Ch.1, do we not? The faithful among those ELCA congregations owe it to themselves and their families to flee.

TR@31:
I assume that you have noted that one of the Blue Ribbon Task force recommendations is to change Article VI.4 such that exclusive use of doctrinally pure materials will no longer required, only that resources used be ‘in harmony with’ Synod’s confessional basis. So your point may be moot in a year.

The proposed new section VII.B.4 could be interpreted as a means to shut down the participation of pastors on this web site.

These items were not brought up by Rev. Greene in his presentation to district convention, so I’m not able to determine if there are more benign interpretations of these proposed constitutional changes.

Click here for the constitutional changes.

I agree with one above. Time to re-direct our funds to worthy orthodox Lutheran causes. It is wrong to fund heretical groups, even if they bear a synodical logo or RSO status.

It would appear that, in the language of the LCMS constitution, the LCMS has become a “heterodox tract and missionary society” that also takes part in the sacramental rites of heterodox communions and rampantly and unrepentantly uses doctrinally impure hymnbooks, liturgies, catechisms, and Agenda in church and school, while also implicitly taking part in a recension of articles of the Augsburg Confession (XIV, XXIV and others), and incorrectly applies Formula X in addition to violating Rule and Norm in the Formula of Concord. This, not to mention, the violation of The Third Use of the law in the clear gospel reductionism evident in the church growth movement, open communion, and ever-widening denial of the order of creation.

Luther was not beyond that, as he wrote some time BEFORE his excommunication:
“Every prince, nobleman and city should boldly forbid their subjects to pay the annates to Rome and should abolish them entirely;[1] for the pope has broken the compact and made the annates a robbery, to the injury and shame of the whole German nation. He gives them to his friends, sells them for large amounts of money, and uses them to endow offices. He has thus lost his right to them, and deserves punishment.”

Martin Luther, “Letter to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation, Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate (1520)”, published a year before Luther’s excommunication in 1521 (Decet Romanum Pontificem) by the Roman Pope.

Neither are the Lutheran Confessions in this regard…

80] But they themselves should remember that riches [estates and revenues] have been given to bishops as alms for the administration and advantage of the churches [that they may serve the Church, and perform their office the more efficiently], as the rule says: The benefice is given because of the office. Therefore they cannot with a good conscience possess these alms, and meanwhile defraud the Church, which has need of these means for supporting ministers, and aiding studies [educating learned men], and caring for the poor and establishing courts, especially matrimonial.
Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope,
The Power and Jurisdiction of Bishops, 80

Perhaps “It’s Time” to talk about the next synod or jurisdiction rather than the next convention?

Remember, funding a district is funding the LCMS.

Synodical membership is a statement of fellowship (communion) and agreement (affirming orthodoxy) of the others in that synod/fellowship. If we do not agree, should we not be relinquishing synodical membership. Dialogue can continue without fellowship or synodical membership.

If I didn’t have such a deep commitment to the Lutheran faith, and such deep disagreement with Rome on a few key points of doctrine, I’d already have crossed the Tiber by this point. In short, I’m fed up. I can’t stand seeing what is happening to the LCMS. And if the LCMS goes much farther I will join with Rome and be done with it.

That is absolutely the stupidest thing I have ever read.

Because the LCMS has gone to pit, you’ll throw away salvation to join a body that teaches justification by works?

You mean Rome and LCMS are the only two ‘choices’ there are?

The LCMS is NOT ‘The Church’…and neither is Rome. Rather, Rome is barely hanging on to being ‘Church’ at all, since it rejects the Athanasian Creed, as well as salvation by grace through faith completely apart from works, as St. Paul says. BUT THERE ARE OTHER LUTHERAN OPTIONS. Thus, you DO have a choice, and what you indicate in the quoted section leaves me coming to a conclusion that you are NOT “Left Coast Confessional” but “Left Coast Traditionalist,” as there is are many options for a real Confessional Lutheran–and NONE of those options is ROME.

Good grief.

EJG

I doubt confessionals would be purged since if nothing else they add to the overall numbers and doctrine isn’t viewed as important enough to get rid of them.

The Confessional Pastors are being purged. Sheep w/o shepherds are easy to lead astray and they will be. (Many of them have been led so long by Pastors afraid to tell them what was really going on that they don’t have a clue!) Some of them have been carefully taught that they don’t have to support their district/synod with no alternatives suggested. They’ve gotten very comfortable spending on themselves only.

They think the mindless ditties are odd at first and then they get used to them…easier than learning five services plus out of LSB! I’ve heard people who should know better say these things. Bad doctrine does drive out good!

I find it distasteful that Rev. Stefanski continues trolling LCMS sites, encouraging people to leave The LCMS. Perhaps he and his “Superintendent” in ELDONA might turn their attention to growing their little micro-synod via means other than sheep stealing?

Just because they did not have the stomach to continue contending for the faith in The LCMS does not mean others of us have had such a case of the vapors.

I think it is time to bid Rev. Stefanski adieu and invite him to tend to his own knitting and keep his nose out of LCMS matters.

Cascione, Otten, Stefanski…please…take a hike. We can get along just fine without you.

Quick note from the Missouri District Convention: Things are going WELL here overall! We’ve had a good day. Won several vice-presidencies and other elections. Passed substitute resolutions that are stronger than what the floor committee gave us. BRTFSSG presentation went over like a lead balloon, I think. I’ll write a more complete report on my own blog here after our convention gets done.

I find it distasteful that Rev. Stefanski continues trolling LCMS sites

I think it’s disgusting that anonymous jerks like ‘Observer’ are allowed to post anywhere, much less to decry invited guests.

First of all, you don’t know what a “troll” is.

Second, my participation in this site has been affirmed by the site owner, with a request for more involvement, which in my earlier note I mentioned as being distasteful to me because of the fact that folks like you, who follow neither Scripture nor sound reasoning, always want to silence those who tell you the uncomfortable truth.

Third, “contending for the faith in the LCMS” never became too much for my stomach (which is why I still do more of it than you do, O Anonymous Hero of Us All), but what became the motivating reality in my life was that I COULD NOT be reconciled to the false teachers in my circuit–there was no way I would ever be able to commune them without their repentance on both personal and doctrinal levels. I realize that such things don’t bother some of you–you happily call your District Presidents “good guys” in spite of their co-officiating at the Lord’s Supper with Jerry Kieschnick and Dave Benke, etc.–but for us Lutherans, it is problematic to do so.

As to the diocese and its growth, no sheep have been stolen, but even the use of such terminology shows that you are simply set on invective instead of consideration of the truth: the LCMS is NOT The Church, therefore, no sheep can be stolen from it.

But, whatever, when a gutless wonder like you speaks, intelligent people will see it for what it is: the calumny of one who must remain nameless lest someone mistake him for someone with a spine and react to him in a way that he might Observe as unpleasant.

EJG

Pr. Rossow, than you for your overly-gracious words.

At this point, however, I will check out, as everything I asserted in my earlier post has been demonstrated and will continue to be. There will be triumphalism over any little ‘victory’, angst over every possible transgression, whether of doctrine or of etiquette, with the LCMS conservatives eating their own time after time, and the absolute refusal of the vast majority (no matter how boldly they post under pseudonyms, etc.) to ever DO anything about ANY of it, much less to confess finally that it is wrong to continue in fellowship with those with whom you, simply, are NOT in fellowship.

EJG

Rev. Stefanski’s comment at #48 would have been more helpful without his first sentence but nonetheless he had a substantive and worthwhile point to make, unlike anonymous poster at #50 which is simply sarcastic, belittling and unkind. Rev. Stefanski may have a more polemical style than many of us are comfortable with but I’ve not doubted the sincerity of his concern for his Lutheran brethren regardless of synod. He does many substantive things for Lutherans in the US and overseas; he does not simply ‘troll’ LCMS sites for the disaffected (and no, I’ve never met him).

Note: my comment at #55 was sent before #52-#54 appeared. I do hope Rev. Stefanski reconsiders.

Left Coast Confessional,

I completely agree with you that the LCMS is a lost cause. But I do think that the future of confessional Lutheranism around the world is extremely bright. And even if I didn’t think so, I wouldn’t be swimming quite yet (although I don’t think you meant that you were at that point yet). The Roman Catholic Church has simply departed from the Scriptures and Church Catholic on too many major points of doctrine, beginning with and flowing from its erroreous view of justification, to be a live option for those who believe the Book of Concord contains an accurate exposition of doctrine. Furthermore, and painful as I know it is, the LCMS is merely a human organization created to safeguard doctrine and practice among a set of American Lutheran churches in the 19th century. The collapse of our umbrella organization does not make the Church any less real in those congregations still correctly proclaiming the Gospel and administering the Sacraments. I do believe American confessional Lutheranism is entering a “post-Synodical age” when confessional congregations in the LCMS, WELS, ELS, micro-synods, and, yes, even the ELCA have more in common with each other than liberal and/or Evangelical congregations within their own synods. You can see the realignment already on this website, in organizations like Higher Things, Issues Etc., the Augsburg Ministerium, the Wittenberg Trail, the Lutheran Liturgy find-a-church website, etc. Christ’s Church does not need the LCMS to survive – something I sometimes need to remind myself. Confessional Lutheranism will continue to do well with or without its current man-made institutional framework.

Best,
Bethany

In response to George, number 24,

Yes, it sounds like a done deal, regardless of what happens in the actual voting in August. There have already been two ELCA districts, in fairly conservative parts of the country no less (NE Minnesota and Oklahoma/Arkansas), that recently passed resolutions stating that they will be disobedient to the vote if the result is the ELCA will not ordain gay clergy.

What very few conservatives are left in that church body are fighting a tremendously steep uphill battle.

Jonathan Schultz,

Actually, a great many ELCA theologians oppose the new sexuality document. See recent Lutheran Forum discussion on the topic. [They just aren't "conservative" in an LCMS sense]. The problem is that it’s not the theologians who run the ELCA and, therefore, they are going get get their lunch handed to them by the administrators and hierarchy. Really, it’s the same thing in the LCMS, just with different issues.

Bethany

To #57. While a specific synod does not need exist for the church to survive a good strong confessional publishing house bringing us doctrinally pure materials and excellent confessional seminaries are. Indeed a good strong unity of mission work, long on doctrine short on razzle dazzle, helps also. I feel like I’m ticking off the LCMS’s original purpose -hmm, if we would get back to that I think we would be doing just fine.

I attended the convention also, but it is interesting how we each see something different. I do not believe either the “Confessionals” or the “Mission Vision” group is a large political machine. I don’t think we give enough credit to God working through the lay people of our church. So here is my take….the people spoke, they are tired of the “Brothers” fighting and backstabbing, is not our Seminaries educating our Shepherds to understand what is right and wrong, and what is good or bad Doctrine. So take care of your own flock and get back to the great commission…go and make disciples!

Bethany,

Thank you for your post. You sum up my thinking about as closely as anyone could, and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I’m not at all ready to give up on confessional Lutheranism, my Roman hyperbole aside. I’m
Lutheran through and through, but I was reacting in frustration at the terrible things I see in my synod (I’m not sure where everyone else is at, but on the “Left Coast” it’s pretty bad. You simply have no idea, you really don’t.) There are some hold out congregations. I’m in one. It’s a small group and getting more and more isolated by the year. But I feel quite sad about the future of a synod that used to be a “light”.

Thanks Bethany, your post made me smile a little.

Observer,

Stefanski has at least two clear advantages over you. First, he uses theological argumentation (unlike your ad hominem “argumentation”) and secondly he is willing to use his real name. It makes me wonder who the real troll is?

Pr. Rossow,

Thank you for saying this. If I had seen this earlier, I would have said the same thing myself. It is more than ridiculously absurd for anonymous posters to spew forth such nonsense about faithful Lutherans such as Rev. Stefanski. And, to put him in a group with Cascione and Otten is insanely laughable, showing forth the utter ignorance of “Observer.”

Why is it that there are many among us who have no problem pointing out the flaws of other denominations, like ELCA and the Methabapticostals, but become incessantly angry and vindictive toward those who correctly point out our flaws?

I, for one, have a very difficult time finding much to disagree about with Rev. Stefanski. At the same time, I have an even more difficult time finding much to agree about with many in my own synod. Remind me again why I’m not in altar and pulpit fellowship with confessional Lutherans like Rev. Stefanski, but am in altar and pulpit fellowship with Americanized Evangelicals pretending to be Lutherans, like Jerry Kieschnick, Dave Benke, Kent Hunter, Ben Griffin (the Alley), and so on. ‘Cause, I gotta tell ya, I’m really struggling here.

“Observer” is frankly clueless. ELDONA is hardly trolling. ELDONA is admonishing, as far as I can tell… and it is rightly done and needed.

As far as pseudonymns go, what I have posted here I have said publicly, in person elsewhere without such. The main reason I’ve done so isn’t out of fear but to focus on the content.

At this point, however, I will check out, as everything I asserted in my earlier post has been demonstrated and will continue to be.

Rev. Stefanski,

I do hope you’ll reconsider checking out. Your voice is much needed among us, and you are a most welcome guest on this site, as far as I’m concerned.

Look, the LCMS is obviously heterodox. We are undermining the Lutheran Confessions left and right. The LCMS does not subscribe to Augustana XIV or XXIV. They basically have been rescinded either officially through convention adopted resolutions, study documents or simply in the toleration of aberrant practice. The LCMS also practices rampant open communion and has departed from a sound understanding of the order of men and women in the church (e.g. 3-08a).

Show me anything in Scripture or the confessions that suggests we should remain in fellowship with those who teach and maintain heterodoxy. It ain’t there. It’s time for us to talk about a new synod. There is nothing unchurchly in doing so. On the contrary it is about the preservation of the marks of the church.

Not everyone’s parish is at the same point in understanding basic Lutheran teaching nor in grasping the issues at hand. That’s very understandable and no one should be condemned for patiently catechizing in that direction, so long as one does not fall into complacency and get too comfortable with the status quo of an untolerable situation.

If some want to run the course of 2010, as I’ll have to also by default, then by all means do so, but don’t fall into the insanity or saying over and over, “the next time we’ll get them.” This is about the marks of the church, not bureaucratic control.

I am sure a good many pastors would like to form a new synod, but the practicality of being within ten years of retirement or of even having a parish to serve if they left their current one is overwhelming to them. I wonder how many whole congregations are ready to leave the LCMS and how much further the LCMS brass has to over step the bounds of Lutheranism before more are ready to go.

Yes, you certainly did have your lunch handed to you. Not because the poor, stupid masses were bombarded with too many tasty sound bites, but because (as you yourself said) you yourself could not articulate a theological argument, or any coherent statement for that matter. This begs a guestion: why couldn’t you articulate your theology well? Answer: Bad theology is always hard to articulate. Your aping of the LSB issue is in clear violation of synodical theology and practice regarding use of worship materials. You simply have nothing to stand on except your own pious wishes that everyone be forced to sing your own favorite songs.

You also mentioned you lost the rhetorical battle. You can say that again! “I’m the Alley’s worst nightmare.” That was worse than an Arnold Schwarzenegger one-liner in the old Terminator movies. The only coherent statements were that the Alley wasn’t lutheran enough, although nobody could articulate a shred of evidence to support the proposition. Finally, the smug condescension that drenched each word smothered any good will or sympathy anyone may have had for all of you.

One last thought, something i’ve found ironic, is this blog’s “no pietists allowed” tag line. If the person who insists on only one hymnal, the proper music, the right size collar, etc. to be a good Lutheran (and therefore Chhristian) isn’t a peitist, then somebody owes Spener an apology. Klemet Preus’ has done nothing more than champion a new form of Lutheran Pietism where the color of his hymnal and his circumference of his collar make him a better Lutheran than others.

The so-called confessionals have sinned by spouting false doctrine, arrogantly refusing correction, and using their own ends to justify any means. The worst offense they have committed is bullying people to believe they must choose between being confessional and missional. I encourage all of the so-called confessionals to confess your sins to God, and bearing the fruit of repentence seek out your brothers whom you have offended and seek their peace and blessing.

If you look at the LCMS treasurer’s report that Pastor Wilken pointed out you might wonder if the synod will have any money in its retirement fund in ten years anyway. Then again that fund should be safe as long as LCMS, Inc. doesn’t run out of assets like Concordia Ann Arbor and KFUO to sell in the years to come. There definitely isn’t enough money coming in from its unified member congregations and districts. Unrestricted funds are down about $8,000,000 or 25% in eight years as is the bureaucratic staff. Things are looking down right financially and theologically dire in the LCMS and the current economy and cultural climate in the U. S. aren’t helping any. Perhaps in the days ahead the LCMS will collapse under its own weight and pastors and congregations will be forced to scatter for financial reasons as well as lack of a common confession.

Tom,

You said “I don’t think we give enough credit to God working through the lay people of our church.” If find it ironic to have it on this site since it is named after a confessional layman, is to encourage laymen studying the Bible and Book of Concord and most of the people here are laymen. Certainly there are pastors posting here as well as on the steering committee to aide, assist and guide laymen. To avoid any pastoral influence would be arrogant and dangerous. Also, many of the articles on this site are written by laymen.

I think you overestimate the quality of pastors coming out of the seminaries. While some are very good others have clearly not absorbed the teaching they should be getting. Note comment #34. If you think the seminaries are doing a fine job of educating our pastors then why do they not seem to agree on what is right and wrong. Some think open communion is fine, others do not. Some think women should be able to serve as presidents of congregations, others do not. Some think Christ crucified should be the focus of a sermon and others want to be “relevant” and tell you why you should be out helping people, bringing them to church and oh yeah Jesus loves them.

Your suggestion to ignore it and focus on our own flocks reminds me of the Wizard of Oz telling Dorothy to ignore the man behind the curtain, don’t pay attention to something out of place, be quiet and mind your own business. There is a problem in our synod and it does affect every flock. When the Bible and Confessions are ignored by pastors of congregations we are supposed to be “walking with” it can create confusion and conflict in other congregations, hindering the making of disciples. If a church from another denomination has different practices it should not be a surprise, but when churches with which you have fellowship have different practices then it makes one wonder who is right or can produce a desire for similar practices since they must be okay if they are done in other LCMS churches.

For example if someone moves from a place with a church that practices open communion to one that does not they may wonder why not when it can be so helpful in getting others to attend. I would expect it to be discussed with friends before asking the pastor and if others are convinced that it sounds good before the pastor addresses the issue some may have already dug their heels in on the issue. Such situations could also involve the role of women in the church, the doctrine of vocation, the use of liturgy, or reducing the Gospel to be more “relevant”. This may happen anyway with people coming from non-LCMS churches but that is no reason to encourage a situation that can lead to division. If we are in a synod together we should be able to expect everyone to actually walk together.

To ignore doing work at district and synodical levels and just focusing on a congregation may be fine if that is what you are called to do, but if you have an opportunity to be of service at these levels it would be irresponsible to blindly allow others to take care of matters when you have seen the consequences of their ignoring doctrine.

I am interested in knowing about this “fighting and backstabbing” you mentioned. Is it regarding articles on here that we can read or about actions you have witnessed? There was recently a bit of discussion on here regarding a misunderstanding between bashing someone and defending proper doctrine. Is this what you are talking about or is it something else?

Comment #69 perhaps unknowingly raises an interesting side-benefit of struggling to remain “relevent” with the contemporary culture: Which congregation would one want to attend more, one that is openly accomodating and offers the least amount of resistance to worldly life, or one that stubbornly clings to out-dated and out-moded liturgies and doctrines and preaches a Gospel that is distressingly out-of-sync with today’s society? More specifically, which congregration would one want to bring OFFERINGS to?

Perhaps the movement to be mission-minded and emergent is nothing more than a weak antedote at failing coffers for the Synod.

Comment #37 suggests a course of action that confessional congregations in LCMS might want to consider. Less funds given by congregations to districts translates to decrease in funding by districts to Synod. At some point, Synod, Inc. may implode, making a “split” in Synod irrelevant.

“Stephen” wrote:

68.Yes, you certainly did have your lunch handed to you. Not because the poor, stupid masses were bombarded with too many tasty sound bites, but because (as you yourself said) you yourself could not articulate a theological argument, or any coherent statement for that matter. This begs a guestion: why couldn’t you articulate your theology well? Answer: Bad theology is always hard to articulate. Your aping of the LSB issue is in clear violation of synodical theology and practice regarding use of worship materials. You simply have nothing to stand on except your own pious wishes that everyone be forced to sing your own favorite songs.

[Reply: You are the one who said they are allegedly "stupid." How crude on your part! How easy for you guys when you have no theology other than pragmatism and Pentecostalism as your theology - which takes no articulation at all... just someone with the gift of "interpretation." By the way, there is no such thing as "synodical theology." Stephen do you subscribe to Augsburg Confession and Apology XXIV? I think we already know the answer to that.]

You also mentioned you lost the rhetorical battle. You can say that again! “I’m the Alley’s worst nightmare.” That was worse than an Arnold Schwarzenegger one-liner in the old Terminator movies. The only coherent statements were that the Alley wasn’t lutheran enough, although nobody could articulate a shred of evidence to support the proposition. Finally, the smug condescension that drenched each word smothered any good will or sympathy anyone may have had for all of you.

[Reply: That it is even in question whether they are Lutheran enough is proof they are not Lutheran. It should be obvious, plain as day, that one is in a Lutheran church. Whatever is not confessed is denied. If you want to be a Baptist, then go do that. The whole lot of pseudo-Lutherans who want to be nothing but Generic American Protestants should simply leave and give up the pretense that they are anything but non-denominational, generic, charismatic Rick Warren wannabes.]

The so-called confessionals have sinned by spouting false doctrine, arrogantly refusing correction, and using their own ends to justify any means. The worst offense they have committed is bullying people to believe they must choose between being confessional and missional. I encourage all of the so-called confessionals to confess your sins to God, and bearing the fruit of repentence seek out your brothers whom you have offended and seek their peace and blessing.

[Reply: What's false? Who's making the choice between confessional and missional? How many people in "missional" churches of that ilk would even be able to sing one of our Divine Service settings, know what the Book of Concord is, or recite any of the Small Catechism, let alone a Lutheran chorale or be able to articulate a Lutheran definition of anything? You can take your Samuel Simon Schmucker hatched version of Lutheranism into the ELCA or wherever Gospel Reductionists congregate?]

Charlie H. wrote:

Quick note from the Missouri District Convention: Things are going WELL here overall! We’ve had a good day. Won several vice-presidencies and other elections. Passed substitute resolutions that are stronger than what the floor committee gave us. BRTFSSG presentation went over like a lead balloon, I think. I’ll write a more complete report on my own blog here after our convention gets done.

+++++++++++++

Relative to other districts, though, you’re just looking at the side of the toast that fell on the floor, facing up.

Stephen,

You said “Your aping of the LSB issue is in clear violation of synodical theology and practice regarding use of worship materials.” Could you please explain this to me? In comment #31 Pr Rossow said

“It is clearly not an overeach. It is in the LCMS constitution, Article VI, par. 4.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CCM/2007Handbook%201-20.pdf”

This paragraph states “Exclusive use of doctrinally pure agenda, hymnbooks, and catechisms in church and school.” It is listed as a condition of membership. I also seem to recall something at the district level there requiring the use of the LSB in mission starts to support this very part of the LCMS constitution.

You said “Bad theology is always hard to articulate.” I have often heard bad theology articulated very well, usually by those with a greater gift of speech than of theology. Perhaps you would like to share this bad theology so that it can be proven bad according to the Bible and Book of Concord. I find it a much better way to address a theological problem rather than to attack the skills of the individual.

Stephen,

You said
“The worst offense they have committed is bullying people to believe they must choose between being confessional and missional. I encourage all of the so-called confessionals to confess your sins to God, and bearing the fruit of repentence seek out your brothers whom you have offended and seek their peace and blessing.”

I have often seen on this site and elsewhere that it is not a question of being missional or confessional but that a church must be both. What do you bring to people if you do not have a solid foundation of pure doctrine and if you have such doctrine why not share it? I think much division is caused by using a worship service as an outreach tool instead of encouraging people to just help and share with people in whatever vocation they are in.

I consider myself a confessional and would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me which sins I should confess and which brothers I have offended that I should seek their blessing. If I have sinned in some way that has offended my brothers I want to repent of it and strive to avoid it in the future.

Stephen @68,

We should all ask the Lord for contrite hearts. This isn’t a matter of finger wagging and blaming others. The issue is walking in true unity that can only come through adherence to the divine truth of the Holy Gospel. When some in our synod are adopting practices that would lead people astray from Word and Sacrament, then we are no longer in real unity the Holy Spirit gives through His word. Instead, what we have is a farcical “unity” where some are calling for tolerance of their fadish practices while they are rapidly abandoning the Lutheran confessions. Indeed, today some of these congregations shrink away from the name “Lutheran” and tomorrow “Confessional” will be a four letter curse word. Perhaps that is already true for some? Nonetheless, repentance is most certainly in order and in that point I agree with you. We should all fall to our knees asking the Lord to forgive us and petition Him to give us the strength we need to remain faithful to the truth of the Holy Word of God and to remain steadfast in our confession of faith. Synods come and go, but the truth of God’s Word endures forever. May the Lord grant us the wisdom, strength, and courage to lovingly stand up for His truth as revealed in His Holy Word. Amen.

Several years ago I was trashed by the Daystar and JF people over my questioning of (are you ready?) the whole Yankee Stadium debacle. I had forgotten how much nastiness there is. Reading Stephen’s comments brings back some unpleasant memories. Ad hominum (sic) attacks have no place on this, of all websites, no matter which camp they come from. Please stick to the issues, y’all.

When you come right down to it, it isn’t about doctrine, practice, theology or any of those, anyways. It’s about money, organization, and power, nobly stated “ends” notwithstanding. Those in now power have money and organization–we who are on the outside apparently have neither. Having watched our SP, and various VP’s and DP’s in action, they certainly aren’t shy about wielding their power–they have it and they ain’t afraid to use it.
Does anyone remember Pr. Rogers (JF) hanging a scarlet letter upon the plaintiffs in the infamous lawsuit at the 07 Convention? Perhaps one of the most devious, underhanded, McCarthyist actions I’ve ever seen at a convention. That’s what we are up against. OK,OK, I’m off the subject. Mea culpa……

The so-called confessionals have sinned by spouting false doctrine, arrogantly refusing correction, and using their own ends to justify any means.

That’s a rather broad statement, now, isn’t it.

As I read the posts regarding the convention and The Alley church, I am again drawn in to the conversation with questions.

I read that the Alley church was admitted into the LCMS organization and that not everyone is “happy” with the decision.

But I’m unclear why people are upset. As I read the posts, it seems that some are upset because the Alley:
1. Doesn’t have hymnals
2. Doesn’t say creeds.
3. Doesn’t practice communion every week.
4. Dresses casually
5. Plays loud and contemporary music.
6. Does not hand out Luther’s small Catechism.
7. (you fill in the blank.)

But my questions are simple:
Do they preach the gospel??
Do they use bibles (not just have them available, but do they want people to bring them and open them up?)
Do they believe in heaven and hell?
Do they believe in salvation by grace?
Do they believe in the Trinity?
Do they believe that the bible is God-inspired?
Do they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again?

It’s easy to not like something because it is different or new. Change is hard, and not always right for everyone.

I love hymns. But I would prefer to have the congregation opening their bibles rather than the red hymnal (or tan one. I’m not sure which one is right.)

Are there unbiblical teachings going on or are there unLutheran teachings going on in the Alley?

If the teachings are unbiblical, please let me know and point me to the instances and correct biblical teaching. Again, I am not trained in theology, so I need to learn from the learned.

With Love,
Kim

Okay, that second list, doesn’t yet make them Lutheran, even if they answer yes to everything. That doesn’t yet establish fellowship.

Do they believe and teach the bodily presence of Christ in the sacrament?

Do they believe and teach baptismal regeneration?

Do they believe and teach the office of the keys?

Do they rightly distinguish law and gospel?

Do they teach that conversion is solely by grace alone or do they teach decision theology?

Do they teach faith through the objective means of grace or do they teach one to trust in feelings and experiences?

Do they rightly observe the order of creation in duties assigned to laity in church?

Do they confess the office of the holy ministry?

Do they unconditionally subscribe to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions in teaching and practice?

Are there unbiblical teachings going on or are there unLutheran teachings going on in the Alley?
+++++++++++++++++

There is no difference. Forming a generic American protestant church is unbiblical.

I guess I need to start very simply, does the LCMS church believe they are the one true church and the only group of believers that is saved? In other words, can you be of a different religion and still be saved, according to the LCMS doctrine?

The better question to ask would be – does the LCMS believe that you can be of another denomination and still be saved?

Rev. Bauer, I also need to know where it is unbiblical to form a generic American protestant church? Could you please point me to the passage?

And as far as the list of questions you have for the Alley, I’m wondering if anyone has every asked the pastor those questions directly?

> Kim: I guess I need to start very simply, does the LCMS church believe they are the one true church and the only group of believers that is saved?

No.

> Kim: In other words, can you be of a different religion and still be saved, according to the LCMS doctrine?

No. You cannot be of a different religion, you must be a Christian.

> Stephanie: The better question to ask would be – does the LCMS believe that you can be of another denomination and still be saved?

Yes. Lutherans try not to judge others faith. Lutherans will judge what you confess against Holy Scripture and correct you where you stray from it.

> Kim: I guess I need to start very simply, does the LCMS church believe they are the one true church and the only group of believers that is saved?

Lutherans don’t consider most protestant denominations to be “Church.” See article VII of the Augsburg confession.

Lutherans are sticklers for sound doctrine because we are commanded to be: Matthew 28:20, Luke 17:2, Titus 1:13, Titus 2:1.

Kim,
If you are not a member of an LCMS church, your questions are entirely reasonable and provide a great starting point for an extended conversation that with the Holy Spirit’s guidance would lead to your joining a Lutheran church. In short, Jesus did not not give his disciples a checklist of things, listed in order of descending importance, that they were required to believe or do, rather he taught them doctrine over a period of years and wanted them to understand and believe “all things” that he taught. So with God’s help, Lutherans try their best to understand and believe Christ in ‘all’ things that he taught, not just the ‘fundamentals’ that you’ve identified (belief that those are the only things that matter is not Lutheran understanding of the Bible). Blog posts can’t substitute for extended catechesis under a pastor which is needed to answer your important questions to a depth that could satisfy you.

But Rev. Bauer has basically listed the questions that Luther’s Small Catechism answers directly (with the Bible verses you ask for) so you could read that as a starting place. Knowledge and acceptance of the answers to those questions are basically the minimum level of understanding of Jesus’s teaching expected of someone wishing to commune at a Lutheran altar (following the Scriptural doctrine of church fellowship). The Lutheran Confessions go into greater detail on Biblical doctrine beyond the Small Catechism. Their significance to this discussion is that all LCMS churches state in their constitutions that they accept the Confessions in their entirety, so all Lutheran pastors and Lutheran churches are to use as these as the foundation in teaching and practice. There shouldn’t be any question among other LCMS members about whether a church or pastor is teaching in accordance to the Confessions; when there is, that’s when controversy ensues (note: I’m a layman and am happy to be corrected by pastors if these statements are off target).

If you are a member of an LCMS church and you’ve never heard the answers to the questions in posts #81-86 before, then that identifies the problem that has many of us concerned about the direction of the LCMS: why do members of Lutheran churches not know or worse, not care to know, Lutheran understanding of Scripture that they’ve publicly stated before God and witnesses that they accept? And can those of us who do accept them be in fellowship with people and churches who agree on paper but not (apparently) in practice? What degree of heterodoxy requires us to break fellowship? When is the heterodoxy irreversible? In this thread, Rev. Stefanski has stated his belief that the LCMS is well past that point and so he has left. Others like Rev. Klement Preus whose post started this thread, remain in the LCMS, hopeful that the LCMS can be reformed to be in full alignment with the Confessions in doctrine and practice. Whether he has made errors in his efforts to do so in his district, I have no way to assess, I don’t live there and I don’t know him personally. But I don’t disparage his motives as his critics have here.

Regarding the Alley specifically, I don’t know anything specific about it, though I have direct knowledge of apparently similarly constituted churches which colors my opinions. To the contrary of your statements, I don’t care about #1-#5 on your list in and of themselves for any church. However, I would want to know their doctrinal reasoning in adopting such practices. Regarding #6 on your list, if the church does not teach the Small Catechism, in light of my statements above, yes, I would wonder why they even want to be a member of the LCMS. I certainly would not be in fellowship with them. I think these are the concerns of the critics of the Alley.

In short (can I be short?), it’s not whether they use a hymnal or organ, but what is their doctrinal reason for not using them? The answer could be good or bad doctrine. Unfortunately, my personal experience has been that underlying answer to that question is that they do NOT accept Lutheran doctrine in its entirety, most specifically the doctrine of “Word Alone”.

Rev. Bauer, I also need to know where it is unbiblical to form a generic American protestant church? Could you please point me to the passage?

Acts 2:42; Matthew 28:19-20; 2 John; Romans 16:17; I Corinthians 11:19; Galatians 5:9; Matthew 16; Matthew 7:15; 2 Timothy 4:1-8.

Kim,

I think that perhaps this discussion is a little into inside facts and presumes a basic understanding of biblical, Lutheran teaching. It would be good if you could sit down with a good Lutheran pastor in your area and go over the basics.

Rev. Bauer, thanks for those passages. Am I understanding though that churches such as the Evangelical Free church would be considered unbiblical?

Aren’t all these churches united in the Baptism of Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit? (And I’m not naive enough to believe that everyone who attends church is filled with the Holy Spirit and thus saved.)

By quoting those scriptures, couldn’t any church use those to make themselves seem like the “right” church?

Pastor Rossow, I have been a member of a LCMS church for the past 15 years. Before that, I was a Catholic.

That is my background.

Baptismal regeneration, I have absolutely no idea what is meant by that. If I knew, I could maybe form an opinion on the E-free church.

But I was baptized Catholic as an infant, so I really didn’t have any training or choice.

And in terms of the Lord’s Supper, I was in discussion a few months back on the blog site, under the Feb 3rd post regarding the closed communion practice and whether we need to receive the Lord’s Supper to receive forgiveness. And Pastor Rossow, I believe you may have been invovled in some of those posts. At least your name sounds familiar.

I have had extensive conversations with my LCMS pastor regarding the closed-communion and the fact that they believe Christ is in, with and under the bread (which somehow is different than the Catholic church’s belief that it is the body and blood.) But both denominations still believe you need to receive communion in order to be forgiven of your sins.

If that is the case, then what was accomplished on the cross?

In John 6:63 Jesus says, “The spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” I won’t type everything before it and make this longer, but when you do reference it, please go back to John 6:41 to get a more accurate picture.

Seeking Truth
Kim

Kim asks: “But both denominations still believe you need to receive communion in order to be forgiven of your sins.

If that is the case, then what was accomplished on the cross?”

Simply put, Jesus accomplished the sacrifice for all sins on the cross. Baptism, the Gospel(Absolution), and the Lord’s Supper deliver that forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn’t stay at the cross 2000 years ago. Christ hand delivers it to you through His Means of Grace.

TR, I am finally getting what the LCMS is saying regarding communion. Could you point me to the biblical passages where forgiveness is given out during baptism, the Lord’s Supper and preaching?

Hello Kim, a few comments:

You wrote “I have had extensive conversations with my LCMS pastor regarding the closed-communion and the fact that they believe Christ is in, with and under the bread (which somehow is different than the Catholic church’s belief that it is the body and blood.)”

The simplest explanation of the difference between RC and Lutheran on the Holy Supper is that Rome says the Bread and Wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, so no more bread and wine. Lutherans confess that the Body and the Blood of Christ are received in Holy Communion based on passages like of 1 Corinthians 11:24,25 and also that the Bread and Wine are received based on 1 Corinthians 10:16. So RC: Body and Blood / Lutheran: Body, Blood, Bread, Wine … and just for fun, the reformed teach Bread and Wine only.

As for baptism and forgiveness check out Acts 2:38.

Oh and Ms. Kim you are asking good and important questions! Carry on!

It is a little troubling that some LCMS pastors go through so little instruction for new members to prepare them to receive instruction.

I’m not sure if the LCMS pastor went through so little instruction, or if I was coming off the Catholic Church and didn’t understand what was going on. I went through a 10-12 week member class (I honestly can’t remember how long it was.) So before I pass any judgment on how poor the pastor did, I will look within and see what I was doing and where I was in my walk with Christ.

Kim

Way to go, Kim! You have asked great questions, questions that many of us have asked, and you deserve straight answers, which you have received. Such questions challenge all of us, and bring us all back to the basics of the Lutheran faith: the Apostles’ doctrine (Acts 2:42). I believe your questions reflect the need for our entire synod to return to those basics. Thanks for raising our consciousness and please keep asking!

Love in Christ,

Johannes

Kim etal, This isn’t about who is a Christian and who is not. Who is saved and who is not. We have set up certain standards to be part of our fellowship. No church has to be a part of our fellowship to be a church. If one wants to be a Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. fine. But those who actually subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions cannot be in fellowship with them. Because we have basic differences on those items which have been expressed by others (earlier in this blog). What we have with theAlley is similar to someone wanting to join a baseball team by playing football. No church has to be a part of LCMSinc. but if they do want to become a member there are certain requirements to join. Requirements all of the other churches had to abide by. Allowing one or more churches to flaunt those requirements sows division. Even though we are supposed to be of the same Synod we really doubt if anyone who had attended theAlley would ever consider joining one of our area churches, because we use the historic liturgy, they would most likely wind up in the Evangelical Free or Assembly of God. One other thing. The SP bemoaned the language which is used on blogs, he said he would have spanked his kids for such, to which I said to a couple of guys standing in the back, “Words like liturgical.” One of the other guys piped up, “Or confessional.”

In looking at my last comment, I have to add that I was at the MNS disaster (convention) and SP stands for Synod President.

Kim, people like you are the reason I’m not yet willing to give up on the LCMS. My wife and I are cradle LCMSers who met at an LCMS church but we both needed catechesis as adults (and were ready to hear it at different ages) before we really understood and committed to what the church teaches. So I understand what you are saying in #101. I sympathize with pastors in knowing how to deal with parishioners who aren’t willing to listen (or even to ask the forthright questions you have instead of just complaining behind their backs about why they won’t jump onto the latest Evangelical church-driven trend). Pastors need the Synod to support them in their parishes and uncertainty whether Synod will is behind at least some of their expressed concern about what has happened at the district conventions and in St. Louis.

I’m fairly new to the synod, a refugee from the shipwreck of Anglicanism. A few observations:

I see great similarity between the emotions and arguments of those advocating (or resigning themselves to) a split in the synod, and those of the Episcopalians who initiated the great exodus from that denomination over the last decade. Having participated in that exodus, I can only warn the brethren that splitting is much more attractive from a safe distance than it is in the actual carrying out of the thing. What is meant to be a clean break by a unified group will end up a ragged, painful splintering. Confessional Lutheranism is likely to be weakened, not strengthened, at least in the near-term (5-10 years) and possibly for decades to come. Split if we must, but in measuring “must” we can’t afford to underestimate the vast toll that will be taken.

Comment 89 implies that there must be a doctrinal reason for not using the organ and hymns. Pshaw. Organs and hymns are not essential to worship, they are mere tools. If the tools aren’t helpful to a given congregation, no further reason for discarding them is necessary. What matters is that with which they are replaced. If they are replaced with vacuous songs or theologically unsound songs, that is a problem, and obviously a serious one. But there is nothing wrong with music done in a contemporary style if the content is sound. If such songs be lacking, then let the musically and lyrically talented among us confessionals be first to remedy the situation. We must not forsake new tools just because they are new, rather some among us should seize them and infuse them with that which lasts…good confessional doctrine, which is to say biblical doctrine. I’m not suggesting doing away with organs and hymns…if they work for you and your congregation as they do for me and mine, by all means keep them. I merely suggest that we ought not to let musical form serve as a proxy for doctrinal substance. Ultimately our battle is over the latter only. If we’re willing to split the church over our musical heritage or anything else that is less than God’s own eternal truth as revealed in Scripture and rightly expounded in our confessions, then church has become for us something it should not be.

Grace and peace be to us all.

Mendicus,

I’m afraid you’re falling into good old fashioned pragmatism. If you are new, then perhaps sit at the feet of some good theologians for a while first.

Mendicus,

Regarding my comment at #89, I was *not* saying nor intending to imply that there needed to be a doctrinal reason for not using the organ and hymnal: In fact I said I didn’t care whether they used them or not, I only wanted to know *why* they didn’t want to use them. I said there could be good reasons OR bad reasons. You have listed good reasons.

However, I’m a life long LCMS member with deep family roots in the LCMS (both sides of the family) literally from coast to coast (including clergy and DCEs) and have moved enough to have been a member of a number of LCMS churches from the Rockies to the Atlantic. Unfortunately, in my personal experience, the more strongly an LCMS Lutheran favors dropping the organ and hymnal in favor of contemporary Christian style music in church, the less committed that person is to Lutheran doctrine. Desire to drop use of the organ and hymnal always seems to be paired with what some have called “Methobapticostal” doctrine. I think this is a common experience, hence the suspicion expressed here regarding the Alley, rightly or wrongly (as stated before I know nothing about this particular church).

Actually, I do believe that there are good reasons to prefer the organ and hymnal in the Divine Service to rock and roll with lyrics projected on a screen. And I am someone with almost 20,000 songs on my 160 GB iPod, not more than 20 are of organ pieces, so this is not a question of personal taste. It is the idea that different forms of music convey different things, and musical forms are not independent of culture. But again, in theory, I agree with you the instruments used don’t matter. In practice it always seems to, however. I think Rev. Klemet Preus makes this point in his book The Fire and the Staff.

How do you square making rules about particular books in worship with this:

“Above all things, I most affectionately and for God’s sake beseech all, who see or desire to observe this our Order of Divine Service, on no account to make of it a compulsory law, or to ensnare or make captive thereby any man’s conscience; but to use it agreeably to Christian liberty at their good pleasure as, where, when and so long as circumstances favour and demand it.”

Interpreting the LCMS Constitution to require use of hymnals is bad textualism. The point is that “doctrinally pure” materials must be used, and in the context of scripture and confessions, I think that is obvious. Demanding use of a particular book in worship ceremonies is legalism. Our synod has approved a lot of praise music, and demanding use of LSB was overreach.

Confessionals will lose (and should lose) until they can advocate the benefits of liturgy without using the words “required” “must” “shall” or “abomination” “cronies” “ilk” etc. Pr. Beecroft’s video was a great example, though of course, many saw it as forbidden “marketing”.

If the LCMS divides over use of particular books or ceremonies, the side that leaves out of a desire to make rules on how to conduct human ceremonies cannot be called confessional. That is absolutely forbidden by the confessions and would never have been supported by Luther.

To Kim and others who don’t get the passion here, I’d suggest that you ignore it. Study scripture, learn and attend the liturgy, read the Lutheran confessions and Luther’s other great works (“On Christian Freedom” is my favorite), sing hymns, and don’t worry too much about internet blog fights or synod politics.

#12 – Timothy Goebel:

I have no idea who did what at your district convention. I’ll let you and Pr Preus sort that out.

However, I did check out the website of TheAlley. Do you believe that the Lord is leading your district to generic American Evangelicalism with rock bands and coffee houses? Seriously, do you think this is the Lord’s leading?

I observed nothing on the website in doctrinal content or presentation that made this church “Lutheran” except it was stated that TheAlley was associated with a “Lutheran” church.

Matt – everyone knows that that all the defining documentation on the theological basis of a church is located on their website….

114 – The website of any church today is its public face – more and more so the first place that people go for information and insight. TheAlley’s website clearly shows that it does not want to be Lutheran…

Mr. Boaz (I’m assuming it’s Mr. and not Ms.)
I, too, have passion. We probably have the passion over the same thing, but different sides of the fence.

The difference between your passion and mine is this: I try to understand where the person is coming from before I lambast them and slander their names all over the place. I try to see if I am in error before I start to criticize others. I actually check things out before I pass judgment.

My errors have come from my understanding of the LCMS church.

I attend the Alley church in Cottage Grove. And by allowing me to ask questions on this website, I have been able to approach my pastor and ask him the same questions. But this time I have had the opportunity to research before I receive the answers.

I think that was the problem when I joined the LCMS church before (15 years ago). I just blindly accepted what they told me without asking any questions. After all, that was the way the Catholic church worked. Just accept this is true because we said so.

I understand the issues with the music at the Alley (believe me, I have a teenage son. I understand issues with music).

But I don’t understand where the Pastor’s theology is different than any of yours.

Maybe the website doesn’t have the information you would like. Because you can tell everything they are theologically sound by their website. (You know they are Christians by their T-shirts????)

But maybe it’s a work in progress.

I am asking for your help. If the Alley is theologically wrong, could someone please join me some Sunday and show me the errors of the Pastor’s teaching? I’m talking the good old-fashioned biblical type of errors. Not of the LCMS doctrine, not of the Augsburg papers (or whatever they were) not of Luther’s catechism.

Thanks for everyone’s time and patience.

Seeking Truth
Kim

TR, I have looked up the passages that you quoted me. And I do appreciate that you directed me to one true word as opposed to the other writings.

I do know what the means of grace are. Sometimes when I ask questions, it is to gain knowledge. Sometimes when I ask questions, it is to see if we have differing knowledge. Don’t assume I don’t know what the means of grace are because I asked you what the LCMS church believes. And I would love to attend your church some time if you let me know where it is.

I do know about baptism, communion, and God’s grace.

Remember, the Catholic church preaches that baptism saves. You must be baptized in order to go to heaven. You must also receive communion weekly. So that doctrine has been instilled in my head since I was born.

“1 Peter 3:18-22 (New International Version)
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[b] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

Baptism is a pledge or outward sign or symbol of our commitment to Christ.

“Acts 10:44-48 (New International Version)

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47″Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.”

Here believers were filled with the Holy Spirit before being baptized. So the baptism was an outward symbol/sign/pledge that they had received and were showing all that they were going to follow. Baptism is not you receiving the Spirit.

EMERGENT CHURCH:
I am very aware of the emergent church movement. And if the Alley website is suggesting books that are written by emergent leaders, such as Brian McClaren, Rob Bell, recommending Nooma videos, etc., then I would go talk to my pastor about those books and authors.

I am not perfect. So therefore, my theology is not perfect.

But I am open to learning and discerning with the bible.

Sometimes I wonder, those who hold fast to their traditions (we’ll take my Catholic parents for example) when they meet Christ face to face and He tells them that they were wrong in their thinking/theology, would they stand there with their fists clenched and lips pierced and claim that they were right because that’s the way it has been done since the beginning of Christianity?

In Him
Kim

So the criminal on the cross (Luke 23:42) say’s “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43).

He believed and it was counted onto him as righteousness, right?

TR, this is where we differ. If I do not have a correct understanding of what the LCMS church preaches and teaches, then I don’t look to my pastor to blame. We are to use it to discern what others are saying, teaching, preaching. But wouldn’t it be easy as I stand before my Maker to say, “Don’t blame me. I just didn’t want to study the word.”

But now that I have stated what church I belong to, it will be easy for you to say – see, look, here is a woman who has attended the Alley church and she doesn’t know the very basics of our teaching.

I have been taught what the LCMS church believes. But I have come to see things differently by sitting at the feet of some other teachers. Again, MY QUESTIONS DON’T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT I DON’T HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE LCMS BELIEF.

Grace is God’s FREE and UNMERITED favor for sinful humanity. I am searching the bible and still am not seeing where grace is received through baptism and communion.

If we receive God’s grace through baptism and communion, why is it we are only baptized once but must receive communion on a weekly basis?

What if my baby dies without being baptized, will she then be cast into the limbo state or cast down to hell?

I think we are putting too much into what WE can do. Here is God’s grace, but you must come to me to receive it????

If someone receives Christ because of my “preaching,” it is not anything I did. The Holy Spirit worked in me, and the Holy Spirit worked on the receiver of my “preaching” to soften their heart and receive the truth.

It is by faith alone, not works, that we are saved. To say that we must now receive grace through baptism and communion goes against the Word.

If we are followers of Christ, we will do as we are commanded, be baptized and share in communion. But doing it does not save us or allow me to receive God’s grace. I have received His grace. It was poured out for me on the cross. I don’t need to receive communion to receive His grace. I WANT to receive communion to share and remember.

I don’t need to tithe to the church. Being a follower, I WANT to tithe to the church.

Is it necessary to be rebaptized if you lived your life for 40 years as a non-believer and then came to Christ? Or was I born again through my infant baptism even though I did not reflect or have knowledge in Christ?

I am praying during this time. I am praying that God show me HIS truth. And that if I am in error, to please allow me to humility to accept that and correct my ways.

Seeking Truth
Kim

I think I understand. It really comes down to the Potter’s Truth and not the clay’s. We humans, with our finite minds sure think we are something, when we are nothing but clay in the Potter’s hands.

“For God so loved the world that he gave His only son, that whoever believes in Him …..” John 3:16

This discussion has helped my turn my eyes upon Jesus and Him alone.

Kim,

I concur with Pr. Rossow’s statements. I think you are missing out on many scriptural truths because of a lack of solid Lutheran teaching. I don’t mean that statement to be condescending. As a brother in Christ I would encourage you to sit down and watch this series of adult information classes taught by my pastor, Ernie Lassman. The accompanying work book, “That I May Know Him” can be purchased at Concordia Publishing House at this link.

Please, go through the videos at least, Kim. I would also encourage you Kim to start reading our Lutheran confessions. You can find them online here at this link. It is difficult to hold a high regard for our Lutheran confessions if you haven’t read them and if your pastor isn’t teaching about them and from them. In fact, perhaps you could find a group of Lutherans reading through the confessions and join in with them? There is a lot of “meat” in our Lutheran confessions, Kim. Don’t accept anyone telling you that our confessional materials are irrelevant and are not necessary to read until you have read them all for yourself and can make that judgment.

Jim Pierce

Kim,

I think you may find Luther’s Small Catechism with Explanation to be very helpful. In the Explanation section it has questions about various doctrines and parts of the faith followed by a short answer and a list of Bible verses. As you flip through the section you can see the majority of it is lists of Bible verses which seems to be what you are looking for. I hope this helps.

#s 107, 108 and 110

Thank you, gentlemen, for your starkly contrasting approaches. Who says confessionals are all alike?

Pastor Frahm, you’ve said nothinig to refute my points, but instead have attempted to exclude me from the conversation. Maybe I should spend a few years in silence at Gamaliel’s feet before entering the sacred ground of your blogosphere. If that is how disagreement is treated in this synod, then we truly are in very deep trouble, and not only from the theological Left.

I am not, contrary to your bald, unsupported assertion, merely being pragmatic. I’m being, or at least seeking to be, strategic (wise) while remaining confessional (innocent). Our Savior seemed to indicate that those two go together nicely.

Perhaps you also would have objected to Luther’s pragmatic adaptation of Ockham’s Aristotelian idea of consubstantiation to explain the Real Presence, something he had set out to avoid but finally resorted to when Zwingli told him his ideas were unreasonable. Zwingli’s battle ground was reason, and Luther took it over…to rather profound effect I would say.

Pastor Rossow, you are quite correct that style and substance are inseparable today. That is because they grew up together, outside the synod. Need the future be the same? And SHG, I agree that there are good reasons to prefer to organ and hymnal to a rock concert approach. Perhaps, however, you posit a false dichotomy, or at least an unnecessary one. There is much room between the extremes.

A helpful question is whether there a point at which style and substance inevitably merge? Is it the use of guitars? Drums? Projectors and screens? I would suggest that there is such a point, but it is not definable by the media, but rather the intention. When the music is meant to take attention away from the message rather than support it, then we’ve crossed the line regardless of the lyrics. But we can use modern musical patterns and instrumentation in a supportive role. We can still tell about salvation history across four verses and a refrain, but in a musical style that is both respectful of the message and pleasing to contemporary sensibilities.

I’m painfully and experientially aware of where Christian music has been and is today. It is, using CS Lewis’s imagery from Pilgrim’s Regress, down in the swamp. But it’s down there because of its historical association with “swampy” Pentecostalism. But history need not dictate the future. We need not try to subsist on ditties, or bind over pietistic congregations that try to do so. We may, if we actually try, bring the form (or at least many aspects of it) out of the swamp and onto the “path” of confessionalism.

This would, I realize, require a coordinated effort. People who today despise contemporary “worship” music, and people who are quite happy with the ditties, would have to actually want to see it succeed. Liturgists and contemporary musicians/writers would have to work together, bringing their respective strengths to the project while acknowledging their own weaknesses. And it’s true that success on such a project would not necessarily stem the rising tide of pietism in our synod. What it could accomplish is providing a means for some confessionally minded congregations, those that would choose to do so, to present the Gospel without the cultural barrier (and folks, it IS a barrier for many) of the music of a largely bygone era.

Pax Christi

Tim Rossow:

I find the eagerness, one might even say pleasure, that you seem to embrace when attacking the Alley Lutheran, and now Kim, to be quite disturbing. The enthusiasm with which you are berating Kim in an obvious effort to advance your crusade against the Alley is not only transparently biased and unreasonable, but I would venture to go so far as to say UN-Christian.

I have been a member of the LCMS my entire life, and being the son of a LCMS Pastors I have had the privilege of knowing many dedicated ministers; NONE of them would have berated a fellow Lutheran if they truly felt that they were going astray and that their spiritual life was truly in danger. The Godly men I have known would have MINISTERED to Kim, engaged her and counseled her if they honestly believed that she was being mislead, NOT attempted to use her as a pawn in their own Machiavellian machinations to attack their own “perceived” enemies and to advance their own political aims.

I would sincerely appreciate hearing your explanation for why you have not attempted to minister to Kim? I suspect that it is because even you do not believe the venom that you are spewing against the Alley Lutheran, but I would welcome an alternative explanation.

I would also appreciate an honest answer to another question while you are at it. The thrust of your attacks on Kim have been that as she apparently does not meet your standards for being a true Lutheran, and by extension, that the Alley Lutheran has obviously failed. I am anxious to know how willing you are to have all of the parishioners of your own church questioned one at a time on every aspect of Lutheran doctrine, and whether, should any of them fail to answer every question properly, are you willing to then man up and take responsibility for your failure as shepherd of your own flock and resign; that is the obvious inference of your attack, isn’t it?

Kim-

I really appreciate all the questions you are bringing up and the responses that have been provided. These mysteries of the church-the holy trinity, baptism, confession and absolution, Holy Communion-are all very difficult to understand and completely explain. But by faith we believe these things-means of grace(i.e. forgiveness of sins)- which our Lord has provided through His word. Your answer to the question concerning why only baptize once but receive communion frequently can be found in scripture-because God says so! Pastors in the church need to be very careful and diligent about what they preach and teach please see Rev 22:19-(And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book) I would encourage you to continue studying these questions and find a confessional pastor that can provide more through instruction. There are some very good pastors in the MSP area.

Kim,

I appreciate your questions. At a different point in my life I asked similar questions and learned much from my pastors, such that I feel bold enough to make the following comments. You ask some challenging questions but they are respectful and sincere and you appear open to learning. I’m a layman, but I am sure the pastors here would love having you in their adult catechesis classes. I think that the reason some have thought that you don’t know what the LCMS teaches is that you seem to be an earnest, long time, active member of an LCMS congregation. Yet you have stated that you don’t accept everything that the LCMS teaches, and have been influenced by things outside the LCMS. My wife and I have stumbled into awkward conversations over the years with LCMS parishioners where we assumed that because they are fellow members of the LCMS that they believe the same things about God and the church that we do … only they don’t. So we have learned the hard way not to assume that fellow members of LCMS churches actually accept Lutheran doctrine. We don’t disrespect them or question their faith, it’s just that we can’t assume common ground when talking about Christianity

My experience as an elder and layman has been that parishioners who no longer or never did believe certain aspects of Lutheran doctrine are reluctant to ask the questions of the pastor that you have here. They just ignore the doctrinal differences or complain behind the pastor’s back that he is not doing something that their neighbor’s non-denominational church is doing. It seems that some pastors are surprised by the fact that not all confirmed LCMS parishioners accept the Lutheran view of Scripture. However, in the pastors’ defense, they are operating from the fact that every confirmed member of the LCMS has agreed to the following in public before God and witnesses:

P Do you confess the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from the Scriptures, as you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism, to be faithful and true?
R I do.
(from the LCMS Rite of Confirmation)

Since LCMS parishioners have made this pledge it is not unreasonable for pastors to have assumed parishioners meant this. Regarding questions of church fellowship, since the pastors are charged with the spiritual well-being of their flocks, they want to be confident that when their parishioners visit other LCMS churches or participate in circuit, district or Synodical activities (eg. LWML) that their parishioners are hearing the Word preached in its truth and purity. So they’re not just critical people sticking their nose into other people’s business. They are trying to be faithful shepherds.

It is by faith alone, not works, that we are saved. To say that we must now receive grace through baptism and communion goes against the Word.

Kim,

Since you stated in response to Pr. Rossow that you know what the means of grace are, I assume that your remaining comments (including the one italicized above) mean that you deny the means of grace. In other words, you know what Lutherans teach (which, by the way, is what the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church has always taught) about the means of grace, but you just happen to disagree with this. Is this a fair assessment of what you’re saying or not?

Regardless, what your comment above fails to recognize is the truth revealed and taught THROUGHOUT HOLY SCRIPTURE that the Triune God – the Only True God – is a God who works through means. Always has. Even in the Garden, before the Fall, He worked through means, supplying our first parents with the Tree of Life, that partaking of its fruit, they would remain in His communion with Him and live forever. He also gave them the opportunity to worship Him by providing the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that not partaking of it, they would show forth their obedience and remain in perfect communion with Him. That they fell did not change God’s character. He continued/continues to be a God who works through means. He doesn’t have to be that kind of a God. But, this is the kind of God He is, as He has revealed to us in His Word.

And, the means through which God chooses to work with fallen mankind have always been the same – His Word and Sacraments. He’s never been a God who leaves people to fend for themselves. He is a relational God, desiring to be in communion with His people. And, He has never allowed people to determine for themselves how they will relate to Him, but has always directed them by His Word how they can be in communion with Him.

So it was that, in the Old Testament, He gave His Word of Promise to send the Messiah who would save fallen humanity from their sinful condition by living the perfect life they can’t live and paying the price for all of their sins with His precious blood. But, here’s the key – He DIDN’T JUST GIVE THEM THIS WORD OF PROMISE! Oh no, He pointed them to the means by which this Word of Promise could be applied to them personally and collectively. He instituted the covenant of circumcision and the sacrificial system, which pointed forward to Christ and the sacraments of Holy Baptism and Holy Communion He Himself would institute. And, by the way, He didn’t tell them, “Hey, y’all just believe in Me and worship Me however you please.” No, He taught them how He is to be worshipped and told them exactly where He would locate Himself, that they might come to Him, confess their sins, hear His Word of forgiveness, and be cleansed by the blood of the animals in the sacrifices, which pointed forward to the ultimate Sacrificial Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. In other words, they were continuously washed clean in the Blood of Christ.

The same is true for us today. God has not changed. He continues to work through means. Faith is a gift, given by God through the means He has established – His Word and Sacraments. Faith is nourished, strengthened and preserved by these same means. Faith which absents itself from these means is on very shaky ground and will ultimately crumble away. The “Me and my Jesus” mentality that permeates Christendom today is blatantly false. I have family members who say things to me like, “I don’t need no stinkin’ church or no stinkin’ pastor. I believe in Jesus. That’s enough for me.” Um, no, it’s really, really NOT! If you really believed in Jesus, you would belong to the Church He established and make use of the means of grace He has instituted to bring you to, and keep you in, the one, true faith.

Our Lord is the Lord who provides. He is not some absentee landlord, who sits on His throne in heaven and hopes that people will figure things out and believe in Him. He comes into our midst to provide for us through the means of grace He has instituted.

Luther had a lot to say about this subject – A LOT! – which is why it never ceases to amaze me when Lutheran pastors de-emphasize the means of grace, and replace them with all kinds of other nonsense. You can’t go back to the cross, Kim. None of us can. But, the fruits of the cross are brought to us here and now in the means of grace. That’s how God rolls; that’s always been His way. Believers in the Old Testament couldn’t get in a time machine and travel to Calvary anymore than we can go back. Like us, they were provided with the means of grace through which the fruits of Christ’s perfect life and sacrificial death were delivered to them.

And, all of this comes to a head when we begin to debate how we should worship. The means of grace – the Holy Word and Sacraments – MUST BE CENTRAL to Christian worship, for they are the very vehicles by which Christ is delivered. If they are de-emphasized or replaced with entertainment, emotionalism, and what not, the “worship experience” has ceased to adhere to the theology of worship revealed in Holy Scripture and believed, taught, and confessed by the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church of all times.

One more thing: You rightly say that we are saved by faith alone. However, I wonder if you realize that, when we Lutherans say that, we do NOT mean that faith is alone. Faith is never alone. Faith lives. Faith breathes. Faith does. Faith shows itself forth in good fruit. Faith clings to that which is its lifeblood, namely Christ, whose salvific fruits are delivered via Word and Sacraments.

In our day and age, the mantra “Faith alone” has sadly been misunderstood to mean that saying, “I believe in Jesus,” is like a magical incantation which automatically secures a place for us in heaven. That Lutherans have sadly adopted this false view of faith is due, in large part, to their flirtation with the decision theology of the Americanized Protestants. Of course, we should expect nothing different when we mimic them in our worship practices. Their worship is designed for people to show God their faith, for they believe that once we “make the decision to accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior,” it is up to us to show God and others how enthusiastic we are about “giving our life to Jesus.” And, plus, they believe God is seated way up there on His throne, so it’s up to them to praise Him loudly and enthusiastically enough to reach Him.

True Lutherans will NEVER ENGAGE IN THIS KIND OF “WORSHIP,” for true Lutherans realize that faith is GIVEN TO US and that we are reliant upon God to keep us in that faith. Thus, when true Lutherans worship, they enter God’s Holy House recognizing that He IS PRESENT WITH THEM to confess their sins, receive absolution, and be fed by their Lord Himself on His Holy Word and Sacraments.

But, I’ve said way more than I intended to say, which is simply that the God revealed to us in Holy Scripture is a God who works through means. Always has been. To make the statement you made above fails to recognize this essential truth, even as the tomfoolery being promoted among us as “worship” today does.

In Christ,
Pr. Messer

TMG:
Wow, you took my breath away. Would you agree that your comment to Pastor Rossow can be viewed by third parties as a venom-spewing attack on him? If yes, how is your note justified in light of the 8th commandment? If no, I will simply say that I am stunned by the gap in our perception of the TR-Kim exchanges. Do you categorize my notes to Kim in the same way? Seriously, do I seem to be spewing bile at Kim and the Alley as well?

Just, wow, what an ocean exists between us.

Kim,

While you are understandably defensive about accusations against your pastor after sharing that you are a member of The Alley I think it is worth pointing out that in comments 89 and 91 people suggested that you seek out a pastor in your area. In comment 94 you indicated that you have has extensive conversations with your LCMS pastor. Comment 100 discussed on poor catechesis by some LCMS pastors. In comment 101 you thought your lack of thorough understanding is more reflective of you and your background rather than your pastor. It was not until comment 116 that you shared your membership at The Alley. There were questions about the quality of teaching you received before anyone here knew where you attend services.

The concern over the quality of teaching by your pastor is because if you, a 15 year member of the LCMS who has had extensive conversations and 10-12 weeks of training exhibit an improper understanding of Baptism (comment 119), then how well tended are the others that he shepherds. James 3:1 tells us that those who teach will be judged more strictly. I do not expect any pastor to be perfect and never make mistakes, quite the contrary. But when we are in a church with so many resources available to help people have a proper understanding of scripture, having quality teaching should not be such a common problem.

I do not think anyone thinks you should defend yourself to God by placing blame on your pastor or a lack of study. The concern for your pastor is so that if he is asked for an account of his life it will not include poor teaching. Hopefully both of you will remember that whatever you may have done in life, Christ paid for it.

I know you prefer Bible references and not ones from the Book of Concord but the Book of Concord has many many Bible references that the authors used to answer incorrect teachings that arose. This site is a helpful place to “learn from the learned” as you said in comment 81, but the Book of Concord offers similar answers from, no disrespect to those here, even more learned people. It is also easy to look through to find something rather than waiting for a reply here. CPH is an excellent source for helpful books as well. None of them can take the place of scripture but they can help you find answers in scripture.

I hope you remember the encouragement from comments 99, 102 and 105.

In pondering the question of worship styles I think it is important to ask what the point of worship is, is it accomplished in this setting or that setting and how well is it accomplished. Also, what is the difference between a liturgical service and a christian rock concert with a testimony? I pose this question not to say that non liturgical services may as well be a concert but to find out when a service becomes more concert than service.

Tim,

What do consider ministering? In comments 93, 95, 109, 121 and 128 contain many verses to help her, questions to help understand her and comments to help answer her questions.
Did you write your comment before 128 was shown, it certainly seemed to minister to her and to try and get to the root of any misunderstandings?

In comment 117 Pr Rossow said “I know that not all of my members are theological scholars but those who would go on a website like this to defend their church would know what the means of grace are and what they stand for.” so I find some of your conclusions wanting.

SHG:

First, my name is Tim, not TMG; I posted it so people would know who I am SHG.

Second, you asked, “Would you agree that your comment to Pastor Rossow can be viewed by third parties as a venom-spewing attack on him?”

My answer is no.

You proceed with, “…If no, I will simply say that I am stunned by the gap in our perception of the TR-Kim exchanges. Do you categorize my notes to Kim in the same way? Seriously, do I seem to be spewing bile at Kim and the Alley as well?”

Truthfully, I did not really take note of your posts SHG; I am mostly following those that are posted with names attached to them. As to the exchange between Kim and Tim Rossow, I think your own perception is quite off. I asked TR several questions, and I am sincerely looking forward to hearing his response; but thank you for your concern.

FYI: Anyone interested in another view of the MNS District situation can visit http://www.missionvisionmn.org.

Mendicus #127,

I agree with you in theory that there should not be a dichotomy and I don’t think the Lutheran Confessions state that there is either. But I do think that in practice in the US in the year 2009 that it works out that way. I’ve been listening to Sonic Youth and the Pixies this morning and an alternative rock internet station woxy.com. My daughter likes contemporary teen pop like the Jonas Brothers and my son (7th grade) only listens to classical music. My wife likes sentimental 70s and 80s soft rock. How can a single musical setting be designed to satisfy our respective musical tastes? Or should we each attend our own services as individuals instead of as a family? That is the core practical dilemma I see with implementation of your concept (and which is why the effort to so always seems to wind up with mushy soft rock ‘contemporary’ services, the occasional hip-hop, jazz or heavy metal service not withstanding). The theological question to consider is how the efficacy of the Word is affected by the musical settings in which it is presented. I’m not an expert on the theology of this point, so don’t have a lot more to say on the subject than this.

A few posts back, and I’m sorry I can’t find it right now, someone stated that there are some good confessional Lutheran churches in the area that I could visit and attend some classes. If you could share that info with me, I would appreciate it.

I have to say, sometimes it gets a little hard dragging your four kids with you to all these different churches, but I am very interested in learning what the LCMS church’s beliefs are.

If any of you blogging on this site wouldn’t mind if I sat in on some of your classes that you teach, I promise, you won’t even know it’s me. I won’t ask questions or try to argue a point. I will sit and learn.

In Him
Kim

Kim,

If you are able to find a group to meet with or classes in your area, please please please ask questions. If you are able to get a hold of them Kolb’s “The Christian Faith” or Mueller’s “Called to Believe, Teach, and Confess” may be helpful to learn about Lutheran doctrine. I’m sure others here can recommend other books that you might be able to buy or borrow from somewhere.

Kim

The current Sunday morning Bible study at the University Lutheran Chapel is on the Augsburg Confession. Here is the website http://www.ulcmn.org/

Kim,

In addition Pr Preus’ congregation (Glory of Christ) in Plymouth, here some other congregations you might consider:

University Lutheran Chapel, Minneapolis, Pr Kind

St John, Corcoran/Maple Grove, Pr Briel

Trinity Lutheran, Arden Hills, Pr Gehlbach

I am sure others can provide other suggestions.

OY

Kim,

I did a google maps check using The Alley as your starting point. From there, Pastor Preus’ congregation is about a 38 mile/ 50 minute drive. However, St. Johns in Maple Grove (from the Issues, Etc. find a church site ) is a 20 mile/ 28 minute drive.

I encourage you to continue asking the questions and receiving God’s Word from the many fine called and ordained ministers who are currently engaging you in the discussion.

I was raised in the LCMS, but I wandered away from Lutheran and Biblical doctrine for other heterodox and in some cases heretical doctrine. However, with all thanks to God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, I was cut to the heart by His Word which was taught to me by many Lutheran pastors through talk shows like Issues, Etc., The God Whisperers, and Fighting for the Faith. They directed me to the Bible and the Lutheran confessions and catechisms (small and large).

The Word of God can be like a jackhammer that rattles you as it breaks through the stone around our hearts and then like a scalpel it cuts with precision to completely convict us; drive us to repentance; and then compel us to cling to Christ and His truth. This truth is what is at stake, and it is wonderful to see God working in your heart to bring you understanding and faith.

In Christ,

Josh

SHG 139,

You raise an interesting point about variety of tastes, indeed one that applies equally to hymns or any other sort of music. As to the impact of musical style on the efficacy of the Word, it seems to me this goes to the core paradox of Lutheran soteriology. In one sense, nothing external to the Word can impede the Spirit’s work through it. We have only God to thank for our salvation, and He works in spite of our own inclination to reject Him and His Word. In another sense, anything can impede the Spirit’s work. We are always free to reject God, and will use any excuse to do so.

Wherever that leaves us, it must be borne in mind that if the attractiveness of music can be a hindrance, so can its unattractiveness, and if the unattractiveness of music cannot be a hindrance, neither can its attractiveness.

Finally, Kim, may I say I am humbled by your mixture of tenacity and humility. You’re receiving good guidance here, and you are wise to seek a good study of the Confessions. I’ll be praying for you, that God will continue to uphold you in your journey.

Signing off,
mendicus

Tim R.,

I accept your apologies.

As to your questions:

#1. “Can you give examples of me berating Kim?”

No; and I do not believe that I did. If believe that I chose my words very carefully.

#2. “Do you think Paul’s direct and blunt approach to the Galatians is a poor model for us to follow? (I think I sense a new bracelet – WWPD – ‘What Would Paul Do?’)”.

I believe Paul was quite justified in both his approach AND his accusations against the Galatians; the question is, are you as sure regarding your accusations against the Alley Lutheran Church, and by extension, Pastor Ben Griffin ministry and President Lane Seitz failure to exercise his ecclesiastical authority. Both are very serious charges, so I would like to be very clear in understanding what you are saying.

Also, I must confess that I am confused by why the “confessionals” so often refer to the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Galatians. I may be missing something obvious, but as I read what Dr. Luther wrote in his Commentary on Galatians:

“Here, in the very beginning, he [Paul] toucheth those false teachers which boasted themselves to be disciples of the Apostles, and to be sent by them, but despised Paul, as one that was neither the Apostle’s scholar, nor sent of any to preach the Gospel, but came in some other way, and of his own hand thrust himself into the office. “

I am, to be quite blunt, more convinced that you and the “confessionals” sound much more like the Galatians in your attacks on your fellow called and ordained Lutheran brothers in Christ than like Paul in his response to the Galatians.

#3. “Could you give an example of my “enthusiasm” for berating The Alley and Kim?”

To the Alley Lutheran, yes; to Kim, as I said above, no.

In the very first post to this blog, you refer to the Alley Lutheran and other issues as “silliness”, and went on to berate “…emergent church gurus that Pastor Ben Griffin and his ilk read, mark learn and inwardly digest, and you hear their ranting about passion, revolution, dynamism and the like.”

I’d say that is over the top and venomous, but that is obviously my own opinion.

If you have specific charges that you would like to make against Rev. Griffin, I would ask you, as I asked the representatives of the former majority members of the MNS District Board of Directors, what are your charges (straight out and unambiguous). Candidly, what is your evidence, and are you willing to file official charges against Rev. Griffin and the Alley Lutheran Church?

#4. “Do you think answering someone’s questions and providing Bible verses for them qualifies as ‘ministering?’”

Yes, and no. While I believe that the Word is inerrant and can stand on its own; I also know that it can be misquoted, twisted and taken out of context, so no, it is not always enough on its own…or we could simply do away with our missionaries and ministers and merely hand out Bibles to everyone and be done with it, couldn’t we?

#5. “Do you think that ministering means something like coddling, cuddling and hand-holding? If so, can you demonstrate that from Scripture? What is your definition of ‘ministering?’”

I would pray that LCMS ministers should follow Jesus’ example, i.e., shepherds to their flock, but if you wish some specifics, my Small Catechism states that a minister “must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, HOSPITABLE, able to TEACH, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, NOT QUARRELSOME, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive. He must not be a recent convert or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. He must be FIRM to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to GIVE INSTRUCTION in sound doctrine and also to REBUKE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT IT. (1 Timothy 3: 2-4, 6; Titus 1:9).

That said, I would ask, have the “confessionals” been at all “hospitable” in their approach in their disagreements with others? Have they attempted to “teach” and “give instruction” to those that they believe are out of step with our Synod, or have they jumped too quickly to “rebuke”? Most importantly though, and my major qualm about the actions of the so called “confessionals” is still my original question…what are your SPECIFIC accusations regarding Pastor Ben Griffin and the Alley Lutheran Church, and if you and the other “confessional” ministers feel this strongly (and well you should, as there are immortal souls at stake), isn’t it your duty as called and ordained LCMS ministers to file your charges with President Kieschnick immediately to defend the LCMS against the spread of false teachings; not to mention protecting Kim and her fellow Alley members from damnation?

TimG.

FYI: Anyone interested in another view of the MNS District situation can visit http://www.missionvisionmn.org.

I think the following quote from Dr. Pieper is pertinent to this discussion.

“Congregations and church bodies must be divided into two classes according to their public doctrine.

It is God’s will and command that in His Church His Word be preached and believed in purity and truth, without adulteration. In God’s Church nobody should utter his own, but only God’s Word (1 Pet. 4:11). Chaff and wheat do not belong together. All “teaching otherwise,” ετεροδιδασχαλειν, is strictly forbidden. 1 Tim. 1:3: “As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some some that they teach no other doctrine.” It is important to point out again and again that in all Scripture there is not a single text permitting a teacher to deviate from the Word of God or granting a child of God license to fraternize with a teacher who deviates from the Word of God. God is against the prophets who proclaim their own dreams (Jer. 23:31 f.). And all Christians without exception are commanded to avoid such (Rom. 16:17; 1 Tim. 6:3ff.).

The distinction between orthodox and heterodox church bodies and congregations is based on this divine order. A congregation or church body which abides by God’s order, in which therefore God’s Word is taught in its purity and the Sacraments administered according to the divine institution, is properly called an orthodox church (ecclesia orthodoxa, pura). But a congregation or church body which, in spite of the divine order, tolerates false doctrine in its midst is properly called a heterodox church (ecclesia heterodoxa, impura). All children of God should be earnestly concerned to see how real and serious this difference between the church bodies is, because indifference as to the Christian doctrine is rampant today among professed Christians, and the “abrogation of creeds” and substitution for them of a so-called “applied Christianity” is represented as the goal the church should strive for.

With regard to the orthodox character of a church body note well: (1) A church body is orthodox only if the true doctrine, as we have it in the Augsburg Confession and the other Lutheran Symbols, is actually taught in its pulpits and its publications and not merely “officially” professed as its faith. Not the “official” doctrine, but actual teaching determines the character of a church body, because Christ enjoins that all things whatsoever He has commanded His disciples should actually be taught and not merely acknowledged in an “official document” as the correct doctrine. It is patent that faith in Christ will be created and preserved through the pure Gospel only when that Gospel is really proclaimed. (2) A church body does not forfeit its orthodox character by reason of the causal intrusion of false doctrine. The thing which the Apostle Paul told the elders of Ephesus: “Also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them” (Acts 20:30), came true not only in the Apostolic Church, but also in the Church of the Reformation and will occur in the Church to the Last Day. A church body loses its orthodoxy only when it no longer applies Rom. 16:17, hence does not combat and eventually remove the false doctrine, but tolerates it without reproof and thus actually grants it equal right with the truth.

We call heterodox church bodies both “churches” and “sects,” depending on whether we have in mind the good or the evil in them. Churches they are in so far as they still retain enough of the Gospel of Christ that men can come to faith in Christ and thus can become true children of God. Sects they are in so far as they have combined to further their deviations from the doctrine of Christ and thus cause divisions in the Church and by their errors and separate existence constantly threaten the faith of the children of God.” —Francis Pieper, Christian Dogmatics III, pp. 422, 423

Tim,
I meant no offense by using your initials, that seemed to be common for this blog. To modify a quote from Monty Python &THG, “I didn’t know you were called Tim”. I admit I was trying to be quick in that my response to your post was a gut reaction as my jaw hit the floor as your perception of the exchanges you criticized so harshly was so completely different from mine. In my case I use initials simply because my full name wouldn’t mean anything more to blog readers than my initials and it seemed in line with this blog’s style.

I do commend you for signing your name to a public personal attack, in contrast to the anonymous attack on Rev. Stefanski early on in this thread. However, I just can’t read your post #129 in any way other than as a personal attack on the motives and character of Rev. Rossow. I can’t get my mind around the logic of using vituperative language to criticize someone for what you perceive as “the venom that [he is] spewing.” Your simple answer to me of “no” doesn’t help me understand how you justify what you posted there either.

I understand better what you are upset about in your follow up post #147, though to me Rev. Rossow’s writing was in fact in line with the behavior cited in your Timothy and Titus quotes. Perhaps it is that what you are upset about is what happened in the MNS convention rather than what was actually written by Rev. Rossow here?

No need to follow up with another reply, I’m also out of time for responding any further on this blog, take it for what it’s worth that you leave someone who knows you only by your writing here quite perplexed. My curiosity is simply that I’ve never understood ‘anti-confessionals’ who write with your style in order to slam ‘confessionals’ for being unloving.

Timothy,

In comment 129 you said:
“The enthusiasm with which you are berating Kim in an obvious effort to advance your crusade against the Alley”
and
“NONE of them would have berated a fellow Lutheran if they truly felt that they were going astray and that their spiritual life was truly in danger. The Godly men I have known would have MINISTERED to Kim, engaged her and counseled her if they honestly believed that she was being mislead”
and also
“The thrust of your attacks on Kim have been that as she apparently does not meet your standards for being a true Lutheran”

In comment 148 in responding to Pr Rossow you said:
“#1. “Can you give examples of me berating Kim?”

No; and I do not believe that I did. If believe that I chose my words very carefully.”
and
“#3. “Could you give an example of my “enthusiasm” for berating The Alley and Kim?”

To the Alley Lutheran, yes; to Kim, as I said above, no.”

In post 129 you do mention Pr Rossow’s enthuiasm in berating Kim and of berating a fellow Lutheran when the men you know would have ministered to Kim. The latter quote mentions attacks on Kim.

Could you give examples of the attacks and berating of which you did accuse Pr Rossow?

TimR:

Funny, I was always told in school that I am actually a fairly good reader, and I always try to do my best to pay attention, so in this, like so many other things, I believe you are mistaken Pastor. As for your attempted obfuscation regarding your actions, you are clearly playing semantics with the terms “charges” and “concerns”, but having read quite a few of your posts now, that does not come as a surprise either.

Regarding your more serious responses, I have actually had the opportunity to hear Pastor Preus express his concerns about The Alley Lutheran Church in person, and I was also there when Pastor Griffin’s wife showed at that same meeting that the majority of the MNS Board of Directors, the “confessionals” as it were, had been spreading misstatements (to be generous) about the Alley Lutheran’s Communion and other worship practices.

You also have “charged” that the Alley Lutheran Church “is in violation of the synod’s constitution. It does not use synodically approved materials for worship.”

What are those “materials” Pastor Rossow, can you give me their titles? I would be very interested to hear more.

You next wrote, “I have specifically asserted that The Alley does not speak of the sacraments in thier statement of beliefs. (They have since changed this but I will still have the higher ground on this argument for quite sometime because no matter what the pastor has done recently, it shall forever be the case that when he chose to make a statement of beliefs on his church’s website he chose to make a protestant statement and not a Lutheran statement by leaving out the sacraements. It will take several years of clear preaching and teaching on the sacraments to convince the casual observer that this was not done to satisfy a complaint.)”

That sounds like a “charge” to me, but that aside, I didn’t know that a churches’ website was what we based a congregation’s doctrinal purity on. If this is so, I would suggest that the Synod appoint a web czar immediately to oversee all LCMS church websites; and maybe he can do something about all those badly outdated and non-functioning WebPages that seem to plague so many Lutheran church sites while he is at it as well.

If you are seriously attempting to make the case that what is on a church’s website is more important than what is in the hearts and minds and on the lips of the pastor and congregation when it comes to Lutheran Doctrine, the sacraments, et al., well, I have to admit that I have no idea how to counter such an ludicrous argument. Touché.

Your comments on the qualifications for a Lutheran minister were rambling and incoherent, so I am unable to address them I’m afraid, but I will address your question regarding how your accusations reflect on the MNS District President.

President Seitz has avowed Pastor Griffin’s confessional teachings and doctrinal adherence in his capacity as District President to exercise ecclesiastical authority over the ministers in our district. If you are saying that Pastor Griffin is not fulfilling the duties of his office, you are likewise saying by extension that President Seitz is wrong in his pronouncement as well.

Pastor Rossow, whether you can see it or not, the arrogance that you “confessionals” show is staggering, the very name is insulting. Pastor Griffin is a confessional Lutheran, in practice and by right of both his confirmation and ordination in the LCMS. I am a confessional Lutheran as a confirmed member of the LCMS. All of the confirmed members of the Alley Lutheran Church, of the MNS District, of the entire LCMS are confessional Lutherans, and your implying otherwise is not only offensive, but it is a slander on all of your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

As final proof of your hubris you close your post with, “The comparison with The Alley to Galatians 1 is this. Paul speaks anathama against those who speak a Gospel different than the one he first taught them. Leving the sacraments out of a statement of belief and promoting emergent church books is speaking a Gospel different than what we have heard from St. Paul. I hope that clarifies for you how Galatians 1 compares to this situation.”

The sanctimony and self-righteousness being displayed by the participants in this comment stream are a prime example of why you so called “confessionals” were completely rebuked at the recent MNS District Convention. You are egotistical and judgmental, but even more sickening; you are fearful, petty, spiteful people who put your own wants and values ahead of the Church and the Great Commission. Your closed hearts have left you unable to see how UN-Christian your actions have become. I have read your accusations regarding the Alley Lutheran Church Pastor Rossow, as well as those of others here, and I find myself wondering, “What were your visits to the Alley Lutheran Church like? What outreach and guidance did you offer when you made your many visits there? What questions did you put to Pastor Griffin, or to the leaders of the church while you were there? How exactly did they turn away from you, the LCMS or, most importantly, our Savior? Etc.” Of course, the answer to all of these questions would be, for most of the people talking about the Alley Lutheran, “I have never worshiped there.”

The sad fact is that your conceit has made you all so blind that you do not even see the irony of the situation. Starting with Pastor Preus on down through the former MNS BoD majority, to you Pastor Rossow, to those posting here, et al., you have become the very people that our Lord Jesus rebuked in the parable from which the Alley Lutheran took its very name:

The Parable of the Great Banquet (NIV)

15When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the man who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”
16Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’
18″But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19″Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20″Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’
21″The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’
22″ ‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’
23″Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. 24I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’

YOU Pastor Rossow, and your fellow “confessionals”, are the people refusing the banquet, not the fledgling Christians taking their first tentative steps toward Salvation by attending this Church that you all despise and yet have never even bothered to visit before bearing false witness against them and attempting to bar their admittance into the MNS District.

I would think and pray long and hard on that Brothers and Sisters in Christ, long and hard, before you continue to add to the bitter attacks on your fellow Christians, your fellow Lutherans, whom you do not know and have never taken the time to even speak with, let alone worship with.

I sincerely pray that you see the light before it is too late.

TimG.

FYI: Anyone interested in another view of the MNS District situation can visit http://www.missionvisionmn.org.

You have convinced me of a point that I have feared all along Pastor Rossow, you are unreachable in your self-satisfied cocoon of self-righteousness. You have closed you ears and your heart, the truth has left you, and you cannot even respond in an honest, frank, Christian way to someone who disagrees with you. I ask you questions, I raise concerns, I respond to your comments, but like a politician, you sidestep, deflect and obfuscate. Life is too short for such nonsense.

I will continue to trust in the LORD’s plan’s for the Church, and pray that my actions will always be in step with them. I sincerely hope that your prayers are the same.

I will not be responding any further to you Pastor Rossow until you can bring yourself to directly address the real comments that I have made; but I wish you well and will continue to pray that you will someday see the errors of your way of dealing with the problems facing our Synod.

God bless.

TimG.

FYI: Anyone interested in another view of the MNS District situation can visit http://www.missionvisionmn.org.

Just want to share a personal testimony with the readers. My family and I have been attending the Alley since September 2007. The Word of God is preached mightily at church and our children are really digging into the Bible. During calendar year 2009, my 15 year old son and I decided to read through the Bible together using a “one-year calendar” we picked up at church. We are blessed as we read through the Bible together and can share with one other from the Word. My son takes his Bible to school, reads on the bus, reads in the morning, and reads at night. For a young man to hunger and thirst after the Word warms this father’s heart and soul and I see that our Heavenly Father is working in my son’s life. Also, our son was confirmed on May 3, 2009 which was a wonderful and blessed day.

The Lord is working in my family members’ lives. We are being blessed and growing even as my wife who is only 43 years old was diagnosed with breast cancer in January 2009. The love, fellowship, spriritual growth, and God’s goodness are overflowing. I’m just a layman. All I know is that I hunger and thirst after God and relationship with Him more than ever. As I open the door, He is always there ready to come in. God is faithful. I hear the Word of God preached and am cut to the heart and am blessed. As I place my whole life in God’s hands, and no matter what the circumstance, there is peace that passes understanding. I seek His Kingdom and everything else is taken care of. That kind of eternal perspective, is life changing.

I just wanted to share this testimony as one who has been blessed for all eternity through being part of the assembly that is coming together for fellowship at the Alley.

Tim G.,

The way I see it you owe Pr. Rossow an apology. You have consistently attacked him with your uncharitable remarks (an understatement to be sure) while he has been more than courteous in giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Jim Pierce

Well, I have been following this thread the whole time. Tim G that was that was the most mean spirited attack I have seen on any site that I visit, bar none. I’m sorry you hate the “confessionals” so much. Apparently you read well but do not comprehend what you read. I thought that Kim was getting some real information, more than what she was getting where ever she attended. Your rants de-rail the answers and scripture references.
I have never met Pastor Rossow but can see his exuberance. Maybe he is too intense for you, so be it. You do understand that you just insulted 90 percent of the viewers of this site, confessional or other . I hope you feel better. Now cool off, say a prayer and go to sleep.
John Hooss

Jim Pierce (#158):

Spell it our Brother. Where have I spoken an untruth or criticized Pastor Preus unfairly, I truly would like to hear the specifics.

Thank you.

John Hooss (#159):

Ditto.

Alley-an (#157):

I am truly sorry to hear about your wife’s illness, but happy to know that you and your family have found a Bible based church to help you through this difficult period.

I pray that the LORD will preserve you and your loved one as you face this challenge together; along with your church, and more importantly your God’s, love and support.

All my best.

TimG.

Timothy,

You said “All of the confirmed members of the Alley Lutheran Church, of the MNS District, of the entire LCMS are confessional Lutherans, and your implying otherwise is not only offensive, but it is a slander on all of your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.”

I have met members of LCMS congregations and attended LCMS congregations that, while part of the LCMS did not subscribe to the confessions in practice. SHG has had this experience as well as he notes in comment 131.

Regarding statements on the church website, I think it is far easier to at least post information indicating the stance of a church than to actually adhere to that stance. Especially when it is a new church meant to attract young people the website is an important contact point. I think to dismiss those objections is a bit rash. The most important thing is what is done and preached during a service. If the website does not reflect it to at least a fair degree then if nothing else it is a poor representation if not misleading in what it does contain. For a church as missional as The Alley I would think the website would be very important.

In comment 148 you accuse Pr Rossow of not being hospitable, failing to teach, not giving instruction and not rebuking those who contradict sound doctrine. Counterexamples to these can be found on this thread. Please refer to my comment 137 for some references.

You said
“The sanctimony and self-righteousness being displayed by the participants in this comment stream are a prime example of why you so called “confessionals” were completely rebuked at the recent MNS District Convention. You are egotistical and judgmental, but even more sickening; you are fearful, petty, spiteful people who put your own wants and values ahead of the Church and the Great Commission.”

Please give examples of the fearful, petty, spiteful posts on this thread, comment numbers will suffice for brevity sake, if I need further clarification I will ask.

Please show me where those posted here have “refused the banquet”.

I await you response to this and my previous comment #153. If you will no longer respond to Pr Rossow will you at least responod to me?

For an example of where you have criticized Pr Rossow unfairly please see comment 153.

Alex,
You beat me to it. Thanks.

Tim I assume you included all of us here when you said,

The sanctimony and self-righteousness being displayed by the participants in this comment stream are a prime example of why you so called “confessionals” were completely rebuked at the recent MNS District Convention. You are egotistical and judgmental, but even more sickening; you are fearful, petty, spiteful people who put your own wants and values ahead of the Church and the Great Commission.”

It seems it is YOUR want’s and values that are the issue. How YOU want to go to church and change the church to your wants and needs.
You offended me and you are not helping YOUR cause.

John

Alex (#153 & 164):

I am not going to play this one sided game any longer. None of my own questions have been answered, none of my concerns addressed, and most disingenuously, all of the facts that I have laid out have been willfully misunderstood by those that they were addressed to.

My purpose posting here is only secondarily to call for some honesty from the “confessionals” here, my main purpose is to point out the misinformation and false accusations being made so that the uninformed can know that there are those of us who disagree and, hopefully, that they will then look into these matters more deeply for themselves.

I have asked REPEATEDLY which of the people talking so knowingly about the shortcomings of the Alley Lutheran have actually visited there, but none have answered. The best that I can get is blather about websites; utter nonsense.

Folks here can continue to ask me all of the questions that they want, but my first post addressed to Pastor Preus (#12) made my points, and everything since has been simply a rehashing. I see no reason to continue trying to have a discussion with people who believe that they already have all of the answers.

Best,
TimG.

Tim G. @ 160,

Here are but three examples:

“The Godly men I have known would have MINISTERED to Kim, engaged her and counseled her if they honestly believed that she was being mislead, NOT attempted to use her as a pawn in their own Machiavellian machinations to attack their own “perceived” enemies and to advance their own political aims.”

“…self-satisfied cocoon of self-righteousness.”

“You are egotistical and judgmental, but even more sickening; you are fearful, petty, spiteful people who put your own wants and values ahead of the Church and the Great Commission.”

The above are examples of completely uncalled for remarks attacking Pr. Rossow’s motives and person. As I stated earlier, you owe Pr. Rossow an apology.

Jim (#166):

Fair enough.

The first comment I still believe. In his responses to Kim, Pastor Rossow used every opportunity to give a back handed slap to the Alley in my opinion.

The second comment was NOT directed at only Pastor Rossow.

Ditto the third.

I have been a member of the LCMS all of my life, and I have never been exposed to the fear that these “confessionals” peddle before this past year. The Lutheranism that I was raised in was always a message of hope, of unearned Grace. I have always lived with the faith that God has a plan and that he uses all these to his glory. These “confessional” pastors that I have run into lately seem to be nothing more than augers of doom. Rather than reaching out, rather than engaging in mission, they condemn and point their fingers and look down their collective noses. One wonders how the leper and the tax collector would fare at their door.

Jim, I do NOT claim to have all of the answers, but I have faith enough in God’s plan, in God’s Word, and in God’s people to live my faith boldly, not to fear change or to react in a knee-jerk action to things before I have been honest and upfront enough to investigate the facts for myself; only then will I begin to make a final decision.

I have been studying these issues regarding the Alley Lutheran, etc. for the last eight months leading up to our recent District conventions, and the actions of the “confessionals” during that period have left me convinced of one thing, that they are not being honest brokers in these matters and that I would like every member of the LCMS to look into these matters for themselves.

Is that too much to ask?

Thanks.

Best,
TimG

Tim G.,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about “the ‘confessionals’” and their findings regarding the Alley. Just for the record I am a Confessional Lutheran who agrees with what Pr. Rossow and Pr. Preus have posted here regarding the Alley. That is besides the point, though.

If you want to make your case for the Alley, then I would suggest sticking with the facts and using less vitriol and refraining the personal attacks. You have come off like an angry teenager shacking his fists at the authorities. Such is rather unconvincing and most assuredly doesn’t help your presentation.

Jim (#169):

I have one question. Have you visited the Alley Lutheran Church, talked with Pastor Griffin and worshiped with the Alley Lutheran Church congregations?

[Or is that three questions? Lol ].

Thanks!

Mr. Pierce,

Please stop condemning the Mormon religion, since you have not spent extensive amounts of time worshiping with Mormons. They SAY they are Christians, and even some ‘Christian authorities’ say they are Christians, so you really should knock it off.

(Yes, that’s the level this ‘discussion’ has reached.)

(BTW: Hi Kim! I’m still waiting for your responses from my last posts to you February.)

(BTW2: The ‘pain’ of separation has, predictably, been overblown in this thread, too. There is far less pain in doing the right thing–even though goods, fame, child, and wife be taken–than in living with doing the wrong thing.)

EJG (Resident ELDoNA Troll and Expert Knitting Instructor)

Rev. Stefanski (#171):

Very droll; I think you missed your calling.

If I take your point, one need know nothing about their fellow LCMS members before leveling charges against them, is that it? Funny, that doesn’t sound very Christian to me; especially if your charges are incorrect.

Of course, why address such matters with any integrity if one has already thrown out the need for accuracy before the discussion has even begun, eh Pastor?

Your flock most be very impressed with your enlightened, and amusingly cavalier approach, toward fairness and truth.

Tim G.,

I live in Seattle and don’t really travel that much. And I mean no offense when I say that Cottage Grove, MN. isn’t high on my list of vacation get-a-ways. So, it would be quite difficult for me to visit the Alley.

While I am here I want to share a couple points. For years I was a Pentecostal prior to becoming an atheist—which by the grace of God alone I am no longer!—and I have zero desire to return to the praise band/Pentecostal-Charismatic worship forms so prevalent in churches where contemporary worship has been embraced. Indeed, when God gave me faith and rescued me from the pit of atheism I was rotting in, I knew that I needed a church that wasn’t nibbling around the edges of the Pentecostal/Charismatic/revivalist movement, but was teaching the Apostles doctrine in its purity. I knew that I was sick and needed the life giving medicine that Jesus Himself gives through His very words. In fact, the “hip” and “cutting edge” congregations here in Seattle (and believe me we have them!) turned me off completely. Churches like “Mars Hill” reeked of pretentiousness, in my opinion. When I landed at my current LC-MS congregation I knew I was home. The pastor looked the part, the services are deeply reverent, and the focus isn’t on “cool clothes”, “hipsters” rattling drums and banging electric guitars, and “life coaches” teaching a therapy session through a dialectical process, while we sip Starbucks in an easy chair. No, at my church we confess the creeds and our sins. The pastor publicly declares absolution to us without the aid of “mood music”. I hear the Gospel proclaimed in its purity. The “crusty old” hymns crescendo in thanks to God for His Word, Supper, and forgiveness. At the Lord’s Supper we hear the words of institution verbatim. People actually wear “old fashioned” suits and we literally kneel at an altar from which the body and blood of Christ is dispensed. AND, there are crosses visible all over the place!

It wasn’t long after being catechized that I understood why Word and Sacrament ministry as practiced at my confessional congregation is important. I now understand why the traditional liturgy is a diamond. I was pointed to those “irrelevant” symbols of confessional Lutheranism and read the BoC. I found our Lutheran Confession of faith soundly scriptural and happily connected to learning theology. The “coffee house” churches I investigated offered a “better me” and little in way of training in the Apostle’s doctrine… if any at all.

So, when I view the Alley’s website I see what I found with the “hip” and “cutting edge” churches here in Seattle that I would not set foot in. Is that fair? I think so. If a church is going to present an image through their web presence that screams “We are Emergent, we are seeker sensitive!”, then they should be prepared to be perceived that way whether the perception is wrong or right. It isn’t incumbent upon people to have to scratch beyond the surface publicly presented by a congregation. If my perception of the Alley, from what they have presented on their website, is inaccurate, then maybe they should consider revising their website to accurately reflect what they actually practice and teach? What reports I have read from those who have attended the Alley seems to accurately be portrayed by what I could gather from their own presentation on their website.

Jim (#173),

I can see the trouble that you would have in attending The Alley Lutheran Church all the way out here in Minnesota Jim.

You are not alone in having never visited there though.

You stated in your previous post that you agree “with what Pr. Rossow and Pr. Preus have posted here regarding the Alley.” The problem that I have with that is that neither Pastor Preus, nor I believe Pastor Rossow (as he won’t answer my question) have attended the Alley Lutheran Church either. You strike me as a sincere person, so I ask you as a fellow LCMS Christian, does it seem at all reasonable to make accusations against someone without any first hand knowledge? Is that at all reasonable?

I have heard many people throw unsubstantiated accusations at the Alley Lutheran, including here in these posts, but all of them seem to have one thing in common; none of these people have ever step foot in the place, or even picked up the phone to call Pastor Griffin.

Jim, what would you do if a small group of uninformed people started making accusations against your congregation? This is not a trick question, and it is not an unreasonable one either. I would sincerely like to know how you would respond to a small group of people making false statements against you, your pastor and your congregation. This is the position that Pastor Preus and those attacking the Alley Lutheran have put that congregation in, putting their own uninformed judgment ahead of our Mission Committee, our Constitution Committee, our District President, and now even above the overwhelming majority of our Convention Delegates.

Jim, all I am asking is that you prayerfully consider this question and then give me your honest opinion., I would be truly interested in hearing your thoughts.

Thank you, and God bless.

Mr. Goebel,

You are a truly amusing man, so secure in your self righteousness that you feel entitled to sit in judgment upon the HEARTS of others, others who have simply found fault (properly) with the ACTIONS of those you favor.

The Alley presents itself in various forums. One of those is its website…yet, you decry those who would object to its anti-Lutheran content. Pr, Rossow pointed out books advocated by The Alley’s pinsetter, books which contradict God’s Word…yet, since these were listed on the website, they are somehow off limits. No, the only way one may object to ANYTHING is to visit in person.

No, Mr. Goebel, it is not I who have a cavalier attitude toward the truth, but you…you, who make it seem that one doesn’t need to express the truth and only the truth on one’s website. You also have quite a cavalier attitude towards what is or is not Christian behavior: if YOU do it, it’s Christian, but whatever anyone you disagree with does, it will be spun as being anti-Christian. Apparently, your pastor-father never explained the Eighth Commandment to you; when you are challenged, you immediately make a personal attack. Then again, your very first post–your attack on Pastor Preus, in which you not only accused hom of being a sore loser, but both him and the rest of the former BoD of being liars–went immediately personal, so this is what I expected…and, indeed, it is why I posted as I did: because your response shows everyone exactly what sort of person you are–and, indeed, what you ‘ilk’ is.

BTW, please do remember that I said somewhere above that ‘ilk’ should always be thought of by a writer as having negative implications. In my use, it most certainly does.

OTOH, I agree with you that those who have charges to bring against the Alley should bring them…and since they won’t be heard because of your corrupt synodical structure, they should understand from the Pieper quote someone posted earlier just how deep the LCMS has sunk into heterodoxy.

You certainly are entertaining, though: my little parody on this website makes it obvious that my parish should remove me for playing fast and loose with the truth, but the Alley’s lack of Lutheran substance on its own professionally done and, one would think, well-thought-out website cannot be counted against them. Very amusing, indeed.

EJG

I have heard many people throw unsubstantiated accusations at the Alley Lutheran,

Y’know, it would be interesting even to see that terminology–”the Alley Lutheran”–anywhere on their website.

But, oh, I forgot…websites don’t count.

EJG

Tim G.,

You ask, “I ask you as a fellow LCMS Christian, does it seem at all reasonable to make accusations against someone without any first hand knowledge? Is that at all reasonable?”

There is first hand information provided by the Alley at their website. There have apparently been a handful of people who have visited the Alley and shared their findings, from what I have gathered from this thread. So, let’s be perfectly clear here; nobody just pulled these accusations out of thin air. There is a basis for them based on first hand information.

You also ask, “Jim, what would you do if a small group of uninformed people started making accusations against your congregation?”

I would try my best to respond to their charges as lovingly as possible. If they didn’t want to listen to reasoning, I would be forced to kick the dust off my shoes and move on.

Finally, you state, “I would sincerely like to know how you would respond to a small group of people making false statements against you, your pastor and your congregation.”

I have no doubt you believe false accusations have been leveled against the Alley and its pastor. However, you have yet to demonstrate that the statements made about the Alley are false. You are asking for a sincere response to your questions, and I can sincerely say that much of your presentation, until our exchange, has been nothing more than a “web tantrum”. I think if you took a deep breathe, and tackled the claims that have been made about the Alley in the spirit you and I are now discussing this issue; I am pretty sure you might get better answers and responses.

It’s late and I have to go to bed, so I am signing off.

Tim, the Lord’s peace to you as you sleep tonight. Good night.

Pastor Stefanski (#175):

It’s just Tim, no need for the Mr.

As for your comments, you have done the same thing as the rest, but that’s fine. I have come to expect a lot less of ministers over the last few months.

First, don’t just toss of that there is “anti-Lutheran content” on the Alley’s website, please give examples. Remember, ANTI-Lutheran examples. My understanding is that the website was examined and cleared, but I would be anxious to hear your examples.

Second, Pastor Rossow actually said non-approved Synodical material and alleged also that they had somehow acted against the LCMS Constitution. The problem with that is that there is currently no list of approved or condemned books; my understanding is that the Synod is actually working on such as list at this very moment. So, this was a false statement against the Alley Lutheran if I have been informed correctly.

Third, I understand the Eighth Commandment just fine Sir, and have had great opportunity over the last few months to study it even more closely as I have seen numerous people (sadly including a few ministers) break it when discussing the Alley Lutheran Church. If you have a specific comment of mine that you believe is false though, I would be open to correction.

As for your charge that I somehow “feel entitled to sit in judgment upon the HEARTS of others, others who have simply found fault (properly) with the ACTIONS of those you favor.” I have attempted to go out of my way to not assign motives for “why” the men who are making these accusations are doing it, only that they are in no position to make a truly informed opinion, and that they have given out misinformation on more than one occasion; and I have never indicated whether that was out of ignorance or malice Pastor, YOU used the word “Liar”.

Lastly, I would never suggest that you should be fired Pastor Stefanski, as I am not a member of your congregation, and I know nothing about you. I was quite sincere that I found your “little parody” quite amusing; but I also found it VERY telling for the reason I stated.

Jim, this post by Pastor Stefanski shows the point that I am trying to make perfectly. As Pastor Stefanski has not claimed to have attended the Alley Lutheran Church or talked to Pastor Griffin, I can’t help but believe that he to is making uninformed accusations (false witness) against the Alley Lutheran Church. What do you think Jim, am I missing something obvious? I would appreciate your honest opinion. Thanks!

Okay Jim (#177),

You have convinced me. There is no reason to continue this discussion here. It has become obvious that it serves no purpose.

I wish you all well.

God bless.

TimG.

May I suggest we read some of Pastor Ben Griffin’s posts over on his blog on the Alley website to help us better understand where he and his members are coming from.

I commend him for his emphasis on the Gospel and Jesus, but I am afraid I find missing any regular mention of the Sacraments as part of the Christian life.

Overflow…
May 19, 2009 at 12:18 pm (Ben’s Musings, Bible)
The book of Hebrews tells us that, “God discipline’s those he loves.” I believe that discipline can come in many forms. Sometimes it is the two-by-four effect, a sudden and drastic wake up call. Sometimes it is in a hardship, calamity often brings clarity. But recently I experienced it in a way I hadn’t really thought of before, being emptied.

Sometimes the challenge of speaking every week, of answering questions, of connecting Spiritually where people need it can become a very draining experience. What I’m learning is that when that happens is when I’ve relied on the well of my experience, love and ability and not trusted in God’s. My well dries up pretty quickly. His is a never ending fountain, you might even call it “living water.”

I think there is a great temptation to turn and trust in ourselves when we are called to trust in God above all else. I find that when I’m at the center, the cup dries up fast. When Jesus is at the center, when his Spirit is working, there is an overflow that can not be contained.

So, I’ve been emptied of myself and now filled by Him.

Lead us all Lord to know the fullness of your truth, the comfort of your gospel and may that lead to a Spiritual overflow in our lives.

One a day…
May 26, 2009 at 10:52 am (Ben’s Musings, Bible)
Two weeks back we put out the “One a day” challenge. The idea is simple. If you are living off of Sunday teaching alone for your spiritual and Scriptural intake then you are spiritually starving. It would be the equivalent of eating one meal a week and starving yourself for six days.

God’s word, the meditation on it, the living in it, the reflecting upon it and the Spirit moving through it that provides the eternally significant truth that we all need to hear. Yet, too many of our devotional lives are a mere afterthought, a fading prayer at bedtime.

So, here again is the challenge. Simple pick up a book of the Bible and read, reflect and pray over One chapter a day. God’s Spirit will move, his word will teach and you will find there the truth. Not always easy truth, but THE truth. Don’t know where to start. I’d suggest the book of Luke.

Remember, this is the book of good news: A messed up people (us) saved by the sacrifice of a gracious God (via God-made-flesh Jesus) not because we’ve earned it, but because, “He so loved the world (us)”. May we all know the grace, peace and gift that God has freely given.

How to spiritually invest in others…
March 20, 2009 at 12:45 pm (Ben’s Musings) (mentoring, Spirituality)
I had a great 24 hour conference this week with some terrific church planters from around the nation. One of the things that we realized in our 24 brain storm was that we typically put a lot of energy into communicating “WHAT” needs to be done but often drop the ball in passing on “HOW” to do it.

This next series of posts I want to focus on the “HOW” of spiritually investing in others.

The first one could easily cross over to parenting as well.

#1 Don’t tell others, show others.

One of my favorite sayings is, “Who you are speaks so loudly, I can’t hear what you are saying.” When Jesus chose his disciples he didn’t invite them to sit in a classroom with him. He called them to walk with him, live with him, and to learn from being with him.

If you want to lead other people spiritually, make sure that you are not leading them to follow you, but rather to walk along side of you in following Jesus!

The best way to invest spiritually in others is to model it. It really is caught more than taught.

Reformission
October 31, 2008 at 9:48 am (Ben’s Musings) (Luther, Reformation, Reformission)
Today is not only Halloween it is Reformation day.

On this day in the year 1517 Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg Germany.

The church as a whole had been selling forgiveness and misrepresented God’s truth. Luther’s act helped people to see that forgiveness is not bought or earned, it is given by grace through Jesus.

This simple act is marked as the beginning of great change in the church… the Reformation. A change that brought the Bible out of hiding, a change that brought God’s grace into light and a change that cost people a great deal personally.

Luther himself said, “Peace if possible, truth at all costs.”

Many say that today is a time that again great change is needed in the church. Many believe it is a time for reformission. Time for the church to stop living for it’s own needs and start going out with the missional and eternally significant story of Jesus. Time for us to get to work!!

Going Deeper… Isaiah 1
February 3, 2009 at 8:36 am (Ben’s Musings, Bible)
My wife and I have been doing the Go Deeper challenge since Christmas. So far we’ve read through Hebrews and James and are now getting into the book of Isaiah. For more on Go Deeper, click here.

Yesterday our reading took us through this section (selected portions listed here)…

When you come to worship me, who asked you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony? Stop bringing me your meaningless gifts; the incense of your offering disgusts me!

I hate your new moon celebrations and your annual festivals. They are a burden to me. I cannot stand them! …

Wash yourselves and be clean! Get your sins out of my sight. Give up your evil ways. Learn to do good. Seek justice. Help the oppressed. Defend the cause of the orphans. Fight for the rights of widows.

“Come now, let’s settle this,” says the Lord. ”Though your sins are like scarlet, I will make them as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, I will make them as white as wool.” Isaiah 1:12-14, 16-18

There is a lot of debate within the church over “kinds” of worship. Is the church “liturgical”, ”contemporary”, “modern”, “emerging”…

I personally see great depth, richness and symbolism in liturgical worship practice. I appreciate the authenticity and heartfelt expression of contemporary/modern worship. And I admire the community aspect of emerging worship…

But the style is not what makes worship… in fact the style, if it is worshiped in the place of God, can become a hinderance to worship and a “burden” in God’s sight.

Notice at the end of the Isaiah passage that after God’s strong words about being clean that we are the passive one’s in the cleansing. Though as red as scarlet, HE will make our sins as white as snow.

I think that when you get that, you get worship. We’ve used the words forgiven and redeemed so many times that we’ve forgotten what they mean. The weight of Jesus sacrifice has passed us.

When we see who we truly are, and that God loves us in spite of that and brought trauma upon Jesus in our place and for our salvation. When we get the depth of our need and the height of his love maybe, just maybe we will begin to not see worship in the guise of a one hour anything on Sunday, regardless of style. But we would do it as an expression of gratitude, an outpouring of surrender, an on your knees, all glory to God, your very self laid down before him worship.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

the Alley blog
Dangerous Sunday
November 24, 2008 at 9:09 pm (Ben’s Musings, Video) (Dangerous, Jesus, Prayer)
What a Sunday! A hard truth… a dangerous prayer… and a truly worshipful time.

It wasn’t that the perfect message was preached or just the right song was sung, simply put, the unmistakable presence of God was there.

Two key take home thoughts:

1) It’s time to stop trying to use God for what we want and start seeking how He wants to use us.

2) At any given moment we are worshipping something. Remember to stop, ask yourself what you are worshipping right now? and then ask what it would look like to worshipping Jesus in this moment?

However, he did add mention of them in this document used for new folks:http://www.thealley.org/downloads/webelieve.pdf

and there was one post where he did mention “communion time”:
Awe
April 6, 2009 at 3:00 pm (Ben’s Musings)
I suppose it’s no surprise as I am the “preacher”, but sometimes I leave a Sunday feeling preachy.

But I just need to say, that in spite of me, I so enjoyed seeing the Spirit move in our church on Sunday. The prayer time, the communion time, the way that God moved in His people sometimes just leaves me in awe.

Praise God, for He is truly the heart and soul of this church!

Ben sounds like a very likable guy. I am sure he has a heart for Jesus and for the lost. I only pray that he has and shares the awesome peace that comes from the gifts of Christ’s Body and Blood given in the Lord’s Supper and the benefit of daily returning to his Baptism through repentance and the forgiveness of sins Christ grants.

Tim,

You didn’t seem to actually answer any of the points I brought up. You were incorrect in thinking that you did not say Pr Rossow berated Kim and made a number of accusations without giving any substantiation. Maybe some things were said without the advantage of weeks of reflections as Pr Preus said at the end of his post. I don’t expect Prs Preus or Rossow to be perfect or anyone else on this board, especially myself since I know far more mistakes that I have made than mistakes made by others. I tried to be helpful by specifying comment numbers in each instance of anything I quoted. If I am guilty of the things you accuse those on this board of then how am I to repent and avoid future error if you do not show me the errors you speak of? There seem to be some communication problems here and I think it would be much easier for everyone’s understanding of each other if you could explain your accusations. How can anyone respond in a way that would satisfy you if they can not understand the reasoning behind your comments? Please don’t leave, I think that would be a loss for everyone.

Alex (#181):

I appreciate the fact that there are sincere folks here like Jim and yourself, and as I have tried to stress, I in no way believe that everyone here is exactly the same in their actions or motives.

I am grateful for your willingness to discuss these subjects. Thank you. I will continue reading the blog postings and comments here on this site, but it has become obvious that trying to continue this particular dialog is futile. While the my fellow LCMS members, such as you, Jim, Kim, et al., seem quite capable of carrying on this discussion, the pastors here appear quite unable to have a serious, open and frank two-way discussion, and I am too old to be lectured as if I were still in Sunday school by prideful men convinced of their own infallibility.

I wish you luck though Brother; and remember, always stick to your Bible for guidance first, and the words of men (even men of the cloth) a distant second. Good luck!

Wow, you guys are serious bloggers – up all night like that.

I say, after I stated that I attended the Alley church, I did feel a change in the answers that were given to me. I felt now my ignorance in the LCMS ways was going to be used against the Alley, as they were in some of the responsorial posts to my questions.

But here is my concern. I am fairly up on the emergent church movement. I am watching and discerning the things that come my way – from every church – and comparing with the bible.

But on this blog site there has been reference made to the Alley being an emergent church. The books listed on the website are emergent books.

I have not read the books listed on the website, but I have seen the recommendation and the authors. None of the authors noted as the top emergent authors, I believe. I don’t see the “Velvet Elvis” listed. I don’t see “The Shack” listed (and that could start a whole ‘nother thread)

So as a Bible-believing, God-fearing, grace needing sister in Christ, I need to know exactly why the Alley is being labeled as emergent. (I have a hard time using the term “Christian” to label myself because so many people throw that term around, it has become diluted.)

Let’s not talk about the creeds or the confessions not being used. Not saying creeds or confessions does not mean you’re in the emergent movement.

Just good hard facts, please.

Seeking Truth
Kim

(Nice to see your posts again Pr. Stefanski)

Oh how concerning this all is. I have been in the LCMS all my life, and a lady doesn’t tell their age, but I DO qualify for discount life insurance, LOL. I have read the comments here, and had to re read the article just to remember what the original discussion was. I was brought up in a conservative country LCMS church,(third generation Lutheran & church founder) but never was taught that Holy Communion (means of Grace) was necassary for individual forgiveness and the death & resurection was for general humanity, as I always thought I was part of the general world. That aside, I see so much commentary on or from Luther, but very, very little Scripture here. We are also, it seems to me, to be forgetting to take into account, what the Bible speaks of the last days. Tickling ears, abandoning sound doctrine, etc. There are too many chapters,(1 & 2 Peter, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, etc) let alone verses to list for this. Where are these in any of the comments related to the recent events in the LCMS? Where were these when speaking to Kim about her questions or situation? Folks, this is NOT just an LCMS issue, it is a vile & wicked issue in every denomination of our Lord’s church on earth. Pick a protestant denomination, you will find it, my brothers and sisters in the EU, have much more cause for concern with this. It is MUCH more evident there. I have, in the past, sent them to this site, to better explain what they have experienced, and what I have recently experienced. I now wonder if that was a good service or not. In some of the above comments, I have seen ministers, mention, they don’t know how to minister, they cannot explain, in simple BIBLICAL terms, what we Lutherans believe, without using Luther first and Scripture second. Never forget folks, not everyone who reads this site is Lutheran. Should a lost sheep have stumbled on this article and the comments, what would they have thought? What would they have taken away from this? To those, who are pastors, who have tried to explain & counsel, this is not the time or place to do this! You give that sweet girl Kim, your church email, or you find a way to contact her PRIVATELY. The other comments included here, blurred your temper to a girl who truly needed your guidance. How could such a basic mistake be made in such a public manner? Kim, you sweet girl, you are in my prayers, these are perilous times for us all, and even for those older and more trained than you. We all struggle with this time we live in, but the Alley, as much as it may make you FEEL and EXPERIENCE, Christ, the Faith, our Faith, YOUR FAITH, is not based on these things. Feelings and experience are fallen, fickle, failable, and fleeting. The Word, is Truth and KNOWING, NOT A FEELING, expression or experience. Read some of the posts from Pastor Wilken or listen to Issues, Etc. That may help a bit. Above all, and I do mean all, READ YOUR LORD’S WORD. Take Daniel as your example, sweetheart, pray diligently before you read the Holy Scriptures, and rely on His guidance and His Holy Spirit to lead you in His Word, seek out and PRAY for trustworthy teachers to help you, and you will more than likely, not find that at the church you now attend. You will not find a perfect church on this side of the fence, but, should the Lord deem it worthy, and right the ship of the LCMS ( I DO PRAY HE DOES) it is a Biblical church. Not perfect, but as Biblical as it gets. Luther, Tyndale, Spurgeon, and the like, are still alive in their teachings, because they were tried, tested, and not found wanting. Stick to those commentaries, not to people like those you find at the Alley. (Sweet, Bell, Kimball, McClaren)
And to those who may think this rather simplistic, that is what our Lord’s Word truly is, simple, merciful and clear and never cagey or complicated. Please remember, have a care for what you say here, damage done in this media, may not be able to be repaired or fixed.
In His Grace, Mercy and Peace,
Heidi

Tim G.,

You could possibly help correct my impression of the Alley by answering the following questions:

1) Do they practice closed communion?
2) Do they regularly use the Lutheran Service Book, or any Lutheran Hymnal during the worship service?
3) If I were a visitor to your church and found your web page, where could I find information telling me when you take Communion?
4) The Alley publishes their statement of faith as a .pdf called “Biblical Convictions”. Can you point me to the section where they mention the Lord’s Supper? Can you point me to the section where they mention Holy Baptism?
5)If I were a visiting your church and asked you where the font and altar are located, could you point them out to me and show me where they are located? (P.S. I can’t see them in the pictures of the church provided on your website.)

Thank you in advance for answering my questions.

Oh, and as a follow up to question 5) above… where are the font and altar located at the Alley?

Jim,

I was referred to some local churches earlier in the posts. These churches could possible redirect my theology to more align with the LCMS church.

When I searched the websites of some of these churches, they were basically not active.

Yes, the website is the first place a person in today’s age would look to get a glimpse into the church. But if you have real questions about such things as closed-communion and the font and alter (which I understand are important things to have in the LCMS church) I would encourage you to send an e-mail to the church itself. That way, you will be able to pass judgment based on the answers you are given instead of drawing your own conclusions based on a picture posted on a website.

Kim

Kim @ 186,

Do you mean “redirect my theology to more align with the Lutheran Confessions and above all Holy Scripture”? The official doctrinal positions of the LC-MS aligns with our Lutheran Confession as far as I can tell, but I am more concerned about what the Scriptures teach as expounded to me through the Lutheran Confession of faith, than I am concerned with the official positions of the LC-MS. As Luther remarked, (and I paraphrase) Popes and councils have erred (including synods), but the Word of God does not err.

Regarding the use of websites… generally when one is confronted with a well designed website it is indicative of the company or organization (including churches) putting their “best foot forward”. That is not always the case, but in general that is true. I should not have to put a call into the Alley church to ask them if they left anything substantive off of their statement of faith as shown on their website, since it should be obvious that they published exactly what they want visitors to know they believe in general.

But… since you attend the Alley maybe you could answer the same questions I ask of Tim G.?