Christian Behavior: I GOT RIGHTS!

April 25th, 2013 Post by

imageI had a conversation with a business man a couple months ago about about some of the pitfalls he experiences in his business as a copier salesman.

He said, “Pastor, when I go into a business, I usually deal with one, maybe two people who are given authority to make a purchase or sign a lease contract. When I go into a church, it seems like I have to deal with the whole congregation.” I replied, “I agree. In a congregation, it is like having X number of CEO’s (where X is the number of members).

Church is not business. However, one of the biggest issues facing local congregations is the balance of power. I HAVE RIGHTS! You can’t tell me. I’m a member too. Power. Privilege. Rights. Honor. Humility. Which words go with business and which words go with church?

According to the United States Bill of Rights, which are the first ten amendments to the US Constitution, the citizens of America are guaranteed a number of personal freedoms. These are:

  • Freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
  • Right to keep and bear arms
  • Protection from quartering troops
  • Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
  • Due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain
  • Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
  • Civil trial by jury
  • Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment
  • Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution
  • Powers of States and people

According to the Bible, the Christian has no rights. The Christian is a passive recipient of grace for the sake of God’s Son, Jesus Christ. No rights in church. WOW! Is it true?

Yes. As a sinner, you are NOT entitled to anything but the wrath of God against yours sins and His judgment and condemnation for those sins. Death is all the sinner is entitled to.

I believe one of the greatest dangers facing the LCMS and all of Christianity is the error of the hearers who mix their civil liberties with God’s grace. The Church is a House of Prayer, a Hospital, and place of mercy and refuge. It is not a place to wield individual or group power against the weak and vulnerable.

I believe the problem of RIGHTS within the church is due to a lack of discipline. The third sacrament of the Keys is discarded, unused, forgotten, and now has no “right” being in the church.

How can the congregation live without discipline? The people and their “RIGHTS” have stripped one of God’s greatest gifts to the church – The Office of the Keys. They don’t trust the Christ to hear their confessions. They don’t believe a man can forgive sins. The Office of the Ministry has become nothing more than an office for the hireling. “Do what we say, when we say it, and how we say it or else you’re fired!” Is this Christian Behavior?

Is this living the Baptismal life described in the Holy Scriptures? Is this a life of imitating the Christ? I say not and pray for mercy.

Respectfully your humble servant,

+ Pastor Wurst


Categories: Steadfast Office Tags:




Rules for comments on this site:


Engage the contents and substance of the post. Rabbit trails and side issues do not help the discussion of the topics.  Our authors work hard to write these articles and it is a disservice to them to distract from the topic at hand.  If you have a topic you think is important to have an article or discussion on, we invite you to submit a request through the "Ask a Pastor" link or submit a guest article.


Provide a valid email address. If you’re unwilling to do this, we are unwilling to let you comment.


Provide at least your first name. Please try to come up with a unique name; if you have a common name add something to it so you aren't confused with another user. We have several "john"'s already for example.  If you have a good reason to use a fake name, please do so but realize that the administrators of the site expect a valid email address and also reserve the right to ask you for your name privately at any time.


If you post as more than one person from the same IP address, we’ll block that address.


Do not engage in ad hominem arguments. We will delete such comments, and will not be obligated to respond to any complaints (public or private ones) about deleting your comments.


Interaction between people leaving comments ought to reflect Christian virtue, interaction that is gracious and respectful, not judging motives.  If error is to be rebuked, evidence of the error ought to be provided.


We reserve the right to identify and deal with trollish behavior as we see fit and without apology.  This may include warnings (public or private ones) or banning.

  1. April 25th, 2013 at 13:06 | #1

    Christian Behavior: I GOT RIGHTS!
    “When I go into a church, it seems like I have to deal with the whole congregation”….
    Church is not business. However, one of the biggest issues facing local congregations is the balance of power….
    I HAVE RIGHTS! You can’t tell me. I’m a member too… Which words go with business and which words go with church?….
    According to the Bible, the Christian has no rights….
    I believe the problem of RIGHTS within the church is due to a lack of discipline….
    The people and their “RIGHTS” have stripped one of God’s greatest gifts to the church – The Office of the Keys.

    Wait a minute! What are we talking about here?!

    A “church” as a building? As the communion of saints? As a congregation? As a (tax-exempt) organization in the Kingdom of the Left? As a single individual Christian?

    In relation to God? In relation to His wrath, judgment and condemnation? In relation to others in the congregation? In relation to the polity specified in the church’s constitution? In relation to the called pastor? In relation to a businessman? In relation to the Synod of which the congregation is a member? In relation to the Synod’s 162-year position on the Lutheran doctrine of church and ministry, which is provided in C.F.W. Walther’s Die Stimme unserer Kirche in der Frage von Kirche und Amt, and which most definitely discusses the “rights (Rechte)… which Christ has procured and which are to be found in His church”, “the rights of the spiritual priesthood”, and the “divine right… of passing judgment on doctrine”?

    Some clarification please.

  2. Pastor John Wurst
    April 25th, 2013 at 13:27 | #2

    Carl…thank you for stopping in and asking some good questions. The article is written in the context of the local congregation. The article also shows, maybe without some details that could be added but are still understood, that I am talking about both kingdoms, left and right. The article can be addressed to individual Christians or to a group of Christians within the congregation. Does this have anything to do with the relation of the Christian to God? Of course. Everything in the life of the Christian is relational; either vertically or horizontally.

    Now, in your closing comment, you bring up the main point, which I was going to address later in another article, but I will touch on it here, and that is the priesthood of all believers. When the Christian doesn’t understand what the Scriptures mean by this title, then the Christian could and usually does begin to thwart others with the misuse of power and the misunderstanding of rights. The best example is the “lay ministry.”

    I hope this helps clarify your questions. Enjoy brother.

  3. walter throm
    April 25th, 2013 at 13:50 | #3

    Dear Pastor Wurst.
    What you point out appears to be a real problem, pastors getting “fired”.
    The real problem stems from the fact that lay people as well as pastors do not understand what their authority is. What is needed are bible classes that show from scripture who has authority under which circumstances.
    It is in accordance with scripture that a congregation can “fire” a pastor, but ONLY if he has separated himself from God in the first place by his transgressions.
    Perhaps some congregations are expecting their pastor to fit the “Position” description for Pastor in the sample By-laws available from Synod. Many of the “Primary Duties and Responsibilities” shown in the Synod sample By-laws are non-scriptural. I find nothing in Scipture about pastors being CEO’s, deciding adiophora etc. Johann Gerhard shows clearly what the duties of the Office of the Keys are; see Booklet 005, free from the LCMS website. Pastors that conform with the guidelines of Johann Gerhard, they CAN NOT be dismissed by any congregation.
    Unfortunately, it appears that not all District Presidents follow scripture, for they evidently have not supported those pastors that were “fired”. Very sad.
    On the other hand, pastors are servants, and not rulers, and “obey those that rule over you” ONLY applies when a Pastor is “in the Word”.

  4. jb
    April 25th, 2013 at 17:01 | #4

    Walter –

    Pastors are what YOU should be – a servant to ALL, for the sake of Jesus. Were most folks busy being so, they’d have little time to turn whatever frustrations they have in their lives upon their pastors.

    Pastors who serve the Gospel are worthy of all respect. Obeying a Pastor is not obeying the “man in the collar” as it were, but Jesus Himself.

    He is all we are there to represent. Unless a heretic, all pastors are where they are, to do just that.

    And the flock has no right to assert its authority over that. Period.

    Pax – jb

  5. Nicholas
    April 25th, 2013 at 17:46 | #5

    @jb #4

    Aside from heresy, there is another situation in which “disobediance” to a pastor is necessary:

    http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/sbc_ministers.html

    http://reformation.com/CSA/lutheranabuse.html

  6. jb
    April 25th, 2013 at 18:03 | #6

    Nicholas –

    Your comment was simply absurd. That which you linked, excluded faithful pastors, and was completely unnecessary, and not germane to what I said whatsoever.

    Just what is your point?

    Dude – stay on point.

  7. John Eidsmoe
    April 25th, 2013 at 18:07 | #7

    Pastor Wurst, You are right; there is a sense in which the Christian is to be a servant and should focus on his duties, not his rights. But a theory of rights can be based upon a Biblical understanding of human nature. Because of the depravity of man, we need civil government; but because of the depravity of all men including government officials, government power must be carefully limited. And the limits of government power can translate into a concept of human rights.
    Do I have a right to read heretical literature? As a God-given right, perhaps not. But government does not have either the competence or the jurisdiction to define heresy; therefore, government is restricted from defining heresy and prohibiting me from reading heresy. My “right” is not the right to read heresy, but the right to estop the government from prohibiting me from reading heresy.
    We might also base a theory of human rights on the fact that man is created in God’s image, and the human dignity that goes with being created in God’s image implies certain rights.
    Godspeed,
    John Eidsmoe

  8. Nicholas
    April 25th, 2013 at 18:39 | #8

    @jb #6

    Nobody knew that those pastors were unfaithful until they offended, and even after they did, many in their congregations denied it and continued to support them.

    You wrote: “Obeying a Pastor is not obeying the ‘man in the collar’ as it were, but Jesus Himself” and “He is all we are there to represent. Unless a heretic, all pastors are where they are, to do just that.”

    My point is that “heretic” is not the only “unless.”

  9. Matthew Mills
    April 25th, 2013 at 18:45 | #9

    @John Eidsmoe #7
    Not to put words in Pr. Wurst’s mouth, but for my $0.02, this is precisely the Enlightenment liberal mindset that produces the rights mentality that Pr. Wurst is opposing in this piece. We get this sort of thing with our mother’s milk, and it’s very American, but it is not at all Christian. This is the well from whence our authority issues spring.

    No one has ever been born free, and no two people have ever been born equal in any meaningful way. Wir sind alle Bettler.

    Pax Christi+,
    -Matt Mills

  10. jb
    April 25th, 2013 at 18:54 | #10

    Nicholas –

    Again I say – stay on point.

    The incredibly vast majority of Christian (Lutheran) pastors are faithful to their vocation.

    You paint with a broad brush, but again, your purpose is nowhere, and in no way clear.

    Just exactly what is your point??

    Pax – jb

  11. Matthew Mills
    April 25th, 2013 at 19:01 | #11

    @jb #10
    I’m fairly sure he just means 1 Tim 3:1-5. Sound doctrine and and outwardly moral life are both required in our overseerers.

    The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?

  12. Nicholas
    April 25th, 2013 at 19:10 | #12
  13. Rev. Glenn Niemann
    April 26th, 2013 at 07:18 | #13

    One must remember that Pastors are members of the “priesthood of all believers,” too.

    Also that in Scripture the “priesthood” is always 2nd person *plural,* never singular. As the oldKJV put it, “ye” plural – not just “you,” singular. (One reason to never throw out your oldKJV Bibles … >;-)

    Just as St. Paul wrote to the RomanS, CorinthianS, GalatianS, EphesianS etc – not to *a* Roman, *a* Corinthian, *a* Galatian, or *an* Ephesian – The Church is “We, Us, Our” … not “Me, Myself, I.”

    We are “… members (plural) of *His* Body, The Church,” after all. [COL 1:18]

    1st COR 1:29

  14. Carl Vehse
    April 26th, 2013 at 08:37 | #14

    Since the title of this thread is “Christian Behavior: I GOT RIGHTS!”, and since there has been some discussion about the abuse of “rights,” it is relevant to mention the positive emphasis on preserving “rights” given in the Lutheran Confessions.

    This positive emphasis on rights can be seen in the explanation of a commandment with a negative command. In his explanation of the eighth commandment Luther states (LC.I.260) as the top priority:

    Therefore this commandment is given first of all that every one shall help his neighbor to secure his rights [seinem Rechten], and not allow them to be hindered or twisted, but shall promote and strictly maintain them, no matter whether he be judge or witness, and let it pertain to whatsoever it will.

    By emphasizing that everyone is to help secure his neighbor’s rights, it is obvious that rights exist for everyone, individually or as a group together with their neighbors.

  15. Pastor John Wurst
    April 26th, 2013 at 11:08 | #15

    Carl, you’re closing in on the target of the article but you picked the wrong Commandment. The undertone of this piece is disobedience, passive-aggressiveness, and antagonism in the congregation by the hearers who claim, “I HAVE RIGHTS!”

    I have the right to read Scripture in the Divine Service.
    I have the right to read sermons.
    I have the right to give the children’s sermon (especially by women today).
    I have the right to get get angry because you, pastor, can’t get angry back.

    Some of these examples may or may not be verbalized.

    This article is about sanctification. It is about the hearers and their need for the exercise of the Office of the Keys. It s about the lack of honor and respect in the congregation.

    Carl, your quote of the 8th Commandment is PERFECT when dealing with individuals poor behavior and against the pastor. Regardless, when the Law is broken, the Keys must be used.

  16. LUKE
    April 26th, 2013 at 12:39 | #16

    Response to the Original Article:

    More then that, the Christian is called to NOT stand up for their rights. Matthew 5:38-41ESV :
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.”

    As an individual, a Christian should recieve the abuse of their rights and person and give love in return. If someone is rude to you, you respond with kindness. In the one-on-one situation, where we are to submit to the abuse and suffering, esp. if it is for our faith, and REJOICE in it.

    “When many of his disciples heard it, they said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?'” (John 6:60 ESV).

  17. April 27th, 2013 at 19:23 | #17

    @Carl Vehse #14

    It seems to me that that is actually a case of disregarding one’s own rights, and accepting responsibility.

    I would argue that the individual has no rights. The individual has responsibility to the rights of all.

  18. Carl Vehse
    April 27th, 2013 at 20:06 | #18

    @Erich #17: “It seems to me that that is actually a case of disregarding one’s own rights, and accepting responsibility.

    “I would argue that the individual has no rights. The individual has responsibility to the rights of all.”

    Well, which is it?! Does the individual have rights (as you assert in your first and third sentence)? Or does he not (which you assert in your second sentence)?

  19. Pastor John Wurst
    April 28th, 2013 at 07:57 | #19

    @John Eidsmoe #7

    John – Thank you for your comment. You missed the point. The article is not about the government of America. This article is about Christians who think they have rights in the church.

    The right to read Scripture. No! Jesus gave it to the pastor to do.

    The right to preach (read) sermons in the pastors absence. No! Jesus gave it to the pastor to do.

    The right to help in the distribution of the Lord’s Supper. No! Jesus gave it to the pastor to do.

    The right to be mean to others. No!

    The right to fire the pastor. No!

    The sinner comes to church to hear the Word of God, be forgiven of their sins, and receive God’s mercy and grace for the sake of His Son, Jesus Christ. Even church going isn’t a right. It’s a gift from God when His Spirit calls the sinner by the Gospel to come and hear.

  20. Pastor John Wurst
    April 28th, 2013 at 07:59 | #20

    @Rev. Glenn Niemann #13

    Glenn – The misunderstanding of the priesthood of all believers is what created the mess the LCMS has called the “lay ministry.”

    You’re correct that pastors and laity both make up the priesthood of all believers. However, the priesthood of all believers doesn’t give the laity the right to play pastor or be pastor.

  21. April 28th, 2013 at 08:48 | #21

    @Carl Vehse #18

    Comment revised:

    It seems to me that that is actually a case of disregarding one’s fantasy of his own rights, and accepting responsibility.

    I would argue that the individual has no rights. The individual has responsibility to the rights of all, which are not individual rights.

  22. Carl Vehse
    April 28th, 2013 at 11:18 | #22

    @Erich #21,

    Now that your previous comment has been revised, you may want to start eliminating all of the doctrinal acknowledgements of individual rights in the Lutheran Confessions, e.g., the Large Catechism, as previously noted, as well as in other Symbols, so that such a revised (quatenus) Lutheran doctrine will then be in line with your opinion.

    However, you state elsewhere, “I’m still Lutheran, but I cannot worship in a Lutheran church that no longer believes the doctrines that were instilled in me when I went to confirmation class.”

    OTOH, you also state elsewhere, “I now attend an Anglo-Catholic church,” and “I feel like Pelikan who said ‘When the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod became Baptist, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America became Methodist, I became Orthodox’.”

    Again, you seem to have trouble making up your mind regarding your confession of faith. Which is it?

  23. helen
    April 28th, 2013 at 14:32 | #23

    @Pastor John Wurst #19

    The right to preach (read) a sermon in the pastor’s absence. No.

    Perhaps not the “right” but that privilege falls to an Elder or other man selected by the congregation when laryngitis (or vacancy) prevents a Pastor from preaching.
    In either case, the lay man is not “preaching” but reading the sermon prepared by an ordained Pastor… if Lutheran protocol is being followed. [Unfortunately, it sometimes is not followed.]

  24. Pastor John Wurst
    April 28th, 2013 at 15:06 | #24

    Helen, thank you for your comment. However, I disagree. The laity do not have a place in the pulpit. Reading sermons is preaching. The fact that this false practice is allowed is a violation of the Lutheran Confessions and goes against the Scriptures. If the pastor is sick then the congregation should go to the nearest place where a pastor is preaching to hear the Word. If there is no other place, They should sit and pray, sing hymns, and then go home.

    The laity do not under any situation have the honor, privilege, or right to play pastor by assuming Christ’s authority.

  25. Rev. Glenn Niemann
    April 29th, 2013 at 19:41 | #25

    @Pastor John Wurst #20

    Totally in agreement, Pr. Wurst – thanks for your article & comments!

    :-)

  26. James Warble
    April 30th, 2013 at 08:04 | #26

    @Pastor John Wurst #24
    Pastor John Wurst, where do you get these strict and specific rules? The laity have the right to hear the word. For you to say that in the pastor’s absence and despite his blessing they may not gather and have one of his sermons read to them is to impose what the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions (and not to mention expedience) do not impose.

    An elder who reads his pastor’s sermon when his pastor is on vacation is not “playing” pastor.

  27. Pastor John Wurst
    April 30th, 2013 at 09:12 | #27

    @James Warble #26

    James – thank you for your comment. The answer to your question about the source of my information is the Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions.

    Your response strictly comes from the institution’s view of the Office of Preaching. The innovative and creative pastors of the LCMS started something by letting their elders preach in their absence. Later, the District Presidents endorsed it and even the CTCR has given their nod of approval to such heretical actions.

    James, You just got to believe me. Playing pastor is not a good thing. Reading a sermon is preaching a sermon. You can’t slice the pie any other way.

  28. John Rixe
    April 30th, 2013 at 09:22 | #28

    The right to read Scripture. No! Jesus gave it to the pastor to do.
    The right to preach (read) sermons in the pastors absence. No! Jesus gave it to the pastor to do.
    The right to help in the distribution of the Lord’s Supper. No! Jesus gave it to the pastor to do.

    Pastor Wurst

    This has probably already been covered in another thread but please give us the Bible references.

    Blessings on your ministry.

  29. #4 Kitty
    April 30th, 2013 at 09:56 | #29

    The laity do not under any situation have the honor, privilege, or right to play pastor by assuming Christ’s authority.

    ~Pastor Wurst a “humble servant”.

  30. John Rixe
    April 30th, 2013 at 10:10 | #30

    Unfair #4 Kitty

    Pr Wurst is talking about the role of the office of pastor, not about himself.

  31. Rev. McCall
    April 30th, 2013 at 10:27 | #31

    @John Rixe #28
    Small Catechism (new maroon edition) beginning on page 224, “What is the Office of the Keys?”
    On page 227: “How does the church publicly exercise the Office of the Keys?”
    They include Scripture references.

    Also relevant is The Augsburg Confession, Article XIV. Concerning Church Government:
    “Concerning church government it is taught that no one should publicly teach, preach, or administer the sacraments without a proper (public) call.”

    The question I think you and others are asking (I may be wrong) is this, “Can a pastor allow someone to teach or preach under the authority of his called office?” Say, an elder? What about vicars? They aren’t called or ordained so why do we let them preach?

    Good questions John! :-)

  32. Pastor John Wurst
    April 30th, 2013 at 10:29 | #32
  33. John Rixe
    April 30th, 2013 at 10:45 | #33

    @Rev. McCall #31

    OK thanks.

  34. #4Kitty
    April 30th, 2013 at 11:25 | #34

    @John Rixe #30

    Pr Wurst is talking about the role of the office of pastor, not about himself.

    I disagree. It’s a bit ironic to refer to yourself as a “humble servant” while arrogantly asserting that the laity (mere hirelings ) only “play” at the privelegded and honored office of assuming Christ’s authority. Because that “right” belongs to the Pastor. You see, it’s only the laity who don’t have rights. Pastor Wurst reminds us that the priveledged and honored clerical class do indeed have rights.
    Do what we say, when we say it, and how we say it or else you’re fired!” Is this Christian Behavior? No Pastor Wurst because you have rights!

  35. Pastor John Wurst
    April 30th, 2013 at 11:54 | #35

    Kitty, it is not the right of the pastor to preacher and administer the sacraments but it is his duty and charge given by Christ to do these things.

    As Rev. McCall stated, the authority of the pastor to preach and administer the sacraments is grounded in the Scriptures and Lutheran Confessions. No where did Jesus grant this authority to the entire church. The Called servant of Christ, the pastor, is the steward of God’s mysteries.

  36. Rev. McCall
    May 1st, 2013 at 08:47 | #36

    From Walthers Kirche und Amt (Church and Ministry): It may help some!

    Thesis I
    “The holy ministry or pastoral office is an office distinct from the priesthood of all believers”

    1. Scriptural Proof
    “Although Holy Scripture attests that all believing Christians are priests (I Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6, 5:10), it at the same time teaches very expressly that in the church there is an office to teach, feed, and rule, which Christians by virtue of their general calling as Christians do not possess. For thus is is written: ‘Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers?’ (1 Corinthians 12:29) Again: ‘ How shall they preach unless they are sent?’ (Romans 10:15). Or: ‘My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.’ (James 3:1).

    2. Witness of the Church in Its Official Confessions
    “Augsburg Confession: ‘Concerning church government it is taught that no one should publicly teach or preach in the church or administer the sacraments without a proper call’ (Art. XIV; German text, Triglot, p. 48)”

    It goes on with further explanation and is a good read to understand how the church and office of ministry interact! I highly commend it to all to read. It is easy to follow and written in a very easy to follow style!

  37. John Rixe
    May 1st, 2013 at 10:57 | #37

    @Pastor John Wurst #24

    Are vicars considered pastors or laity?

  38. Pastor John Wurst
    May 1st, 2013 at 14:33 | #38

    Vicars are laymen in training for the Holy Office. Before you ask, let me say it now, NO – they should NOT be preaching at any time. It’s wrong. It’s a violation of God’s Word and the Lutheran Confessions.

  39. John Rixe
    May 1st, 2013 at 14:48 | #39

    @Pastor John Wurst #38

    (I’m not being confrontational here, just curious).  If vicars would not do preaching, read the lessons, distribute communion, etc, what would they do?  Did you do a vicarage, and what did you do?   Thanks for your replies.

  40. Pastor John Wurst
    May 1st, 2013 at 16:00 | #40

    John – I know you’re not being confrontational. You’re learning. That is good. You are asking good questions.

    Now, strictly speaking, a vicar shall not preach. However, the LCMS has made a poor excuse for vicars preaching by stating one sermon a month is good practice. The LCMS states as long as the supervisor, the pastor of the congregation, reads and approves the vicars manuscript, the sermon is no longer the vicars but the pastors. Now, the LCMS states the vicar is not preaching but reading the pastor’s sermon. Do you see the tangled web of deceit?

    Why stop there? If a vicar can read, why not let an elder read? Why not let Betty Sue read? When does the heresy stop?

    On my vicarage, my supervisor informed me I would be preaching one Sunday a month and every Thursday night. I figured I had to do the Sunday just to graduate. I protested against the every Thursday night and was told cooperate to graduate.

    As for the reading of the lessons and assisting with the distribution, these are good lessons for the vicar. He shall not consecrate the elements nor should the vicar distribute the Body of Christ. The pastor s the one who is admitting the people to his altar. He does this by giving the the Body of Christ. No other should do this.

    I hope all this helps you understand the Lutheran theology of your questions.

  41. helen
    May 1st, 2013 at 16:54 | #41

    @Pastor John Wurst #40
    The pastor s the one who is admitting the people to his altar.

    Do you mean “HIS” altar, at which the Pastor serves?

    As I read it, it reminds me of “Grace OUR table with Your presence…”
    [referring to that which Lutherans understand to be the Lord's table.]

  42. Pastor John Wurst
    May 1st, 2013 at 20:10 | #42

    Helen, when the pastor is installed as the under-shepherd of Christ in a congregation, he serves that holy pace as the steward of God’s mysteries; Word and Sacraments. The altar and pulpit are under his authority. No one preaches or receives the sacrament without his approval.

  43. May 2nd, 2013 at 15:41 | #43

    @Carl Vehse #22

    I’m sorry that it’s taken me so long to get back to you.

    Thank you for visiting my blog. I hope you enjoyed it.

    In regard to your disagreement with me about rights, pleas direct me to the specific passages that you think I want to disregard. Linking to a PDF and expecting me to wade through it is not a very good way to get me to understand your point, which I’m not sure I get.

    Please direct me to where “the doctrinal acknowledgements of individual rights in the Lutheran Confessions, e.g., the Large Catechism” are. My book of Concord is on my desk.

    Thanks.

  44. Carl Vehse
    May 2nd, 2013 at 22:08 | #44

    @Erich #43,

    I provided one reference in the Lutheran Confessions acknowledging an individual’s rights (“seinem Rechten“). Among other references are Ap. XXIII, LC.I.328 and Tr.78. A person who defends and promotes the rights of his neighbor, still has his own rights, even if he were to chose to not to exercise those rights.

If you have problems commenting on this site, or need to change a comment after it has been posted on the site, please contact us. For help with getting your comment formatted, click here.
Subscribe to comments feed  ..  Subscribe to comments feed for this post
Anonymous comments are welcome on this board, but we do require a valid email address so the admins can verify who you are. Please try to come up with a unique name; if you have a common name add something to it so you aren't confused with another user. We have several "john"'s already for example. Email addresses are kept private on this site, and only available to the site admins. Comments posted without a valid email address may not be published. Want an icon to identify your comment? See this page to see how.
*

Notify me of followup comments via e-mail. You can also subscribe without commenting.