The End Times Cry of the DP’s: “Stay Off the Blogs!” by Pr. Rossow

November 21st, 2012 Post by

When is the last time you heard a District President warn the pastors of his district to stay away from the latest heterodox evangelical fad with all its attendant published paraphernalia or from the latest secular-sociological demographics study that holds the key to church growth? I don’t ever remember hearing such a warning but the pleas to stay off the blogs are sounded with eschatological frequency and urgency. What’s up with that?

I suppose there is a half truth in the siren warnings of the DP’s, but it is only a half truth. If a pastor is spending too much time on the blogs that of course is a bad thing, sort of like spending too much time playing computer war games, or spending too much time on your gardening or watercolor painting. (Yes, watercolor painting – it is one of my hobbies.) Too much time on any of these things can draw the pastor away from his family and vocational duties. But that is not the fault of the blogs.

I speculate that a big part of their griping against blog time is because of the content of most of the blogs. They are pushing good ‘ole fashioned, liturgical, confessional, traditional doctrine and practice.

There are some DP’s who warn their pastors against reading evangelical tripe. The Iowa East DP comes to mind, but then again, he probably does not have to issue such warnings at his conferences because he actually gets out and visits his pastors and views their libraries in person. What a concept, an overseer who is overseeing! He is a first cousin of our grand poobah Overseer in St. Louis with the big moustache. In my estimation, the only difference between the two is that the first cousin got a head start on oversight. I am hearing of and beginning to see some intentional efforts toward supervision coming out of the Big Purple House. That itself may be a sign of the end times. As they say in “Evangelical Land” – maranatha!






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  1. November 24th, 2012 at 15:34 | #1

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #46

    The extremely important pastoral formation that takes place in a residential setting cannot be replaced with SMPP or any other mail-order degree. What you propose, Pastor Rossow, is not “distance learning,” but I’m concerned that the training would be so parochial that DPs would be cloning their political (not so theological) selves. As Helen pointed out from Texas, and I’m saying from SED, the view is different from here. :)

    On the other hand, you make a good point that pastoral formation in a residential setting does not (did not) prevent Seminex…

  2. Martin R. Noland
    November 24th, 2012 at 15:42 | #2

    Dear Pastor Rossow,

    Thanks for your article on DPs and blogs. Of course, you know most of those comments you refer to are directed toward this blog. :) Some of them are directed at me. :) :)

    The truth is that blogging and social networks and Facebook are all part of the 21st century. I have to give you, Norm Fisher, and your board lots of credit for trying to figure out how the church community and these things work together.

    If you walk into the climate-controlled archives at CHI, there is a section known as “Unofficial Publications.” You will find all sorts of interesting newletters there, including the “Crucible” (Wilhelm Oesch), “Confessional Lutheran” (Paul Burgdorf), and many others. “Christian News” and “Affirm” are shelved, I think, in their own section with the periodicals.

    None of these “Unofficial Publications” have ever been appreciated by the “officials” of the synod. You might remember that JAO Preus told Herman Otten to shut down his operation at least twice at different national conventions, and he also told the Balance, Inc. guys to do the same, at least once.

    While I was still at CHI, the archivist there regularly patrolled the existing “unofficial” websites and blogs, and then printed and filed the ones of historical interest or value. I suspect that he is still doing that work today.

    “Unofficial Publications,” whether online or in print, have great value to the historian because, while not always correct, they often reveal things about the church organization that you would find out in no other way. You perform that service here, online for the LCMS, as Herman Otten continues to do in print with Christian News.

    I hope that the people of our church realize how important these “unofficial publications” are in keeping our elected officials “honest,” i.e., serving as a “check” (i.e., as in “checks and balances”) to their officials’ ambitions, pride, and gradiose plans.

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #34

    Regarding the seminaries, you say: Bonus Part of the Plan. 5. Close seminaries. 6. Each DP is respnsible for teaching the candidates from his district. (This helps assure that theologians will be chosen for DP.) 7. District funds are also provided for a teacher in each district to assist the DP with seminary training. 8. Students live at the DP’s parish. . . .This of course would mean that our “seminaries” no longer worry about being certified by the secular government (North Central such and such)

    I can agree that we don’t have to do seminary exactly like what we are doing today. The Free Church Germans (SELK) have a different system that we could learn from, in my opinion. I think they have three years of graduate schoool, then two years of vicarage, then final oral and written exams.

    I have always thought that in, our LCMS system, going back to seminary after the vicarage for the fourth year, doesn’t quite make sense, especially now that the vast majority are married with children.

    I don’t agree with the idea of giving up on a graduate degree program, whatever degree-name you call it and however many years are involved. For many people, part of the attraction of the Lutheran church is that it has educated and literate pastors, who have been heavily screened by some church authority. Two or three years of graduate work are the minimum for a pastor to have any sort of competence, in my opinion.

    I don’t agree with the idea of giving up on a faculty of theology, particularly in the “hard sciences” of dogmatic theology, exegetical theology, church history, homiletics, and liturgics. There is just too much content in these fields, and too much expertise required, for any district president or his assistant to be able to teach competently in all these areas. A vicarage supervisor, if properly trained, could teach the other subjects of pastoral theology and practice.

    I don’t agree with people who have given up on residential study for theology, although I do think that online training may be able to supplement our seminary curriculum in the future. The jury is still out, in the field of general higher education, about the enduring value of this mode of education. Big schools are getting into it for the money; not because they care about the quality of education for their students.

    Practical concerns constrain your proposals. . . .

    District Presidents are chosen for their popularity or trustworthiness in the LCMS, not for their wisdom or knowledge. This is the system we have, and I am not criticizing it, except to say that popular elections won’t produce the type of DP you want who could really teach–or who might be dedicated to that task.

    With regard to local congregations and local pastors, when it comes to vicars, they almost always see vicars as “cheap labor.” I can’t see many congregations willingly wanting to spend more money and getting less work from their vicars. Again, I am not criticizing this, except to say that putting more of the educational responsibility on the local congregation and local pastor won’t produce the type of education you want.

    The seminary system evolved in the United States many years ago in response to these practical realities. Some local congregations may have the money and resources to “apprentice” their own pastors – I think this is one of the factors behind the SMP program. For the other 99%, the seminary system is the most practical way to get the best results in an educated and pious clergy–and Lutherans aren’t the only ones who know that.

    Thanks for hosting a great blog, Pastor Rossow. May you and yours have a blessed Adventide!

    Yours in Christ, Martin R. Noland

  3. November 24th, 2012 at 15:48 | #3

    Helen,

    What I am suggesting is returning to a model similar to the early churh in the pre-Christian era.

    We may not have a choice in this. We are quickly entering the post Christian era. And, we are witnessing the break-down of the institution known as the LCMS.

    In just more than a generation, at our current reproduction rate, we won’t even have enough Lutherans to comprise the LCMS. Your international Lutherans will be what’s left of confessional Lutheranism.

    I am merely proposing a post Christian era, trimmed down version of synod that worked before.

    It is far from a completely worked out plan. It is hardly even a sketch. I would not want to lose the internationals for sure. I know many of them personally. Genajdi from Kazakstan, Joseph and David from Madagascar, and the late Bishop from Sudan (I forget his name now) who started it all.

    It may never be more than a sketch. These are all helpful critiques.

  4. John Rixe
    November 24th, 2012 at 16:44 | #4

    I think we’re overlooking Pastor Rossow’s points 1-4 which seem sound and doable.  Is there anything that BJS’rs can do to raise these points with the reorganization task force?

  5. Karl Pierson
    November 24th, 2012 at 16:46 | #5

    helen :
    @Karl Pierson #47
    And what would prevent these “Theologian DP’s” from being worse dictators than the ones are now, when any man who doesn’t toe the “CoWoe” line is in danger of being removed from his Office?

    The problem is not the seminary; it’s getting the money out of the district offices to support the seminary.

    What’s preventing a return to the Bible and the Confessions right now?

    All excellent points, Helen. I concede on every count. I guess the only way I know how to proceed, as inarticulate as this sounds, is to shake things up as much as possible. The current structure is precisely as Jesus describes it in Mark 7:9, 13: “Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition…. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition…”

  6. ralph luedtke
    November 24th, 2012 at 17:06 | #6

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #43
    no way!-rochester

  7. ralph luedtke
    November 24th, 2012 at 17:17 | #7

    when shall we address some sins tolerated in some districts-known and swept away-even with long reports of fact? let the dps come clean! it’s about time

  8. November 24th, 2012 at 19:00 | #8

    Martin,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. I am not sure why but I was actaully thinking of you when I wrote this post.

    I am not opposed to scholarly work, after all I have two masters and a doctorate and I am proud of the work I did.

    I am convinced though that we are a bit blinded by the North Central College (or whatever it is called) accreditation stuff.

    If we had a system such as I have described I am convinced that the bright minds of the LCMS would still be writing and thinking as well as they do now. Actually, they might be doing so even mroe effectively, since there would not be the shackles of formal paper writing.

  9. Jason
    November 24th, 2012 at 19:02 | #9

    Pastor Ted Crandall :but I’m concerned that the training would be so parochial that DPs would be cloning their political (not so theological) selves.

    Yeah… Living out on the east coast, that is kind of what happens. the AD has SMP’s and a deacon program (with women deacons), and a DP who has been there for 20+ years. You can get a lot set up with that longevity. And they way so many fawn over this Leader. Living under his huge shadow makes me actually want to puke. And if you want proof (John Rixe) go read over at ALPB. Some of the posters who live there (some hold positions) and the “Sons of the AD.” Some really think New York is where it’s ALL at.

    I would be worried about the district model, in that it could lead to Balkanization. At least at the seminary, “all” pastors work together for a time, with similar shared experiences. I think this would help the Life Together aspect way more than the “each to his own” district model. Pr. Rossow brings up good discussion points. Gets us to think. We do need to get TOGETHER and figure this out.

  10. Martin R. Noland
    November 24th, 2012 at 20:28 | #10

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #8

    Dear Pastor Rossow,

    I think you are referring to the North Central Region of the ATS. The schools that are accredited by ATS are listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_accredited_by_the_Association_of_Theological_Schools_in_the_United_States_and_Canada

    One of the big advantages of accreditation is that it tells people that a seminary is not a “fly-by-night” operation, that it follows certain standards, and that their pastor has more than a “mail-order/online degree.” This is really important for the non-denominational churches, which have no national governing authority.

    It is probably less important for centralized denominations, like the LCMS or Roman Catholics, which can set their own mandatory standards and enforce them through agencies such as the LCMS Board for Pastoral Education. Um . . . oh, wait . . . didn’t we dissolve that board at the last convention? :)

    What I really like about your idea on page 1, #34, is that theological acumen would be part of the requirements for the office of District President. I don’t know how the LCMS got away from this, or when, but I am guessing it was one of those things that happened as the LCMS got Americanized in the 1950s.

    I know that my maternal grandmother’s pastor, who catechized my mother and father, and who baptized me and my siblings, was one guy who really knew his theology. He was a District President in C-N-H district for most of his career (ca. 1914-60), and received a Doctor of Divinity in late career for his learned service to the church. He is just one of many examples in that generation of pastors and DPs.

    For Lutherans, I think the model should be Martin Chemnitz. Everyone interested in your ideas, Pastor Rossow, should read J.A.O. Preus’ The Second Martin about the life and work of Chemnitz. He did most of his significant work while either Assistant Bishop or Bishop of Braunschweig.

    I really appreciate Chemnitz’s work of catechizing the pastors in his district, which Preus explains in detail. I think Chemnitz agreed with your idea, taken from the early church, that the bishop should be primarily about the work of instilling good doctrine and sound practice in his pastors and congregations.

    Chemnitz, by the way, did not intend that his work in his “district” would replace the University of Wittenberg and its theological school. He saw the role of the bishop more in the role of “lifelong theological education” of pastors and laymen. Ironic, isn’t it, that by hosting this blog, you have taken on the work of “lifelong theological education” of pastors and laymen?

    To those who might object to your blog-work of theological education, as apparently some do, I quote Luther who said “Necessity has no law and needs none.”

    I think that the greatest contribution that Brothers of John the Steadfast has made, so far, besides the resuscitation of Issues, etc., is the “lifelong education” of Lutheran laymen who are “stuck” in congregations where they don’t get good Lutheran preaching or teaching. For many of these people, BJS is a life-saver.

    For many pastors stuck in circuits or congregations with no sympathetic ears, BJS is a life-line of sanity and real Lutheranism. For such pastors, listening to the BJS “brothers” talk about the ministry, about Jesus, the Word, and the Gospel is therapy–and they ignore the less attractive parts of blogdom.

    Again, thanks for all your work for the church and for Lutheran theology, Pastor Rossow!

    Yours in Christ, Martin R. Noland

  11. November 24th, 2012 at 20:46 | #11

    Thanks Martin for your support of BJS. You are making us blush. :)

  12. November 24th, 2012 at 20:54 | #12

    Martin R. Noland :
    What I really like about your idea on page 1, #34, is that theological acumen would be part of the requirements for the office of District President. I don’t know how the LCMS got away from this, or when, but I am guessing it was one of those things that happened as the LCMS got Americanized in the 1950s.

    It must have happened before we had a District President who became Synodical President without knowing about baptismal regeneration… :) That painful memory of suffering reminds me that I’m rereading Pastor Kadai’s “Luther’s Theology of the Cross” [CTQ July 1999, http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/kadailutherstheologyofthecross.pdf and I just had to tell someone this great Luther quote:

    "Rather than seeing God's face [in suffering], man gazes at the devil’s behind.”

  13. GaiusKurios
    November 25th, 2012 at 08:51 | #13

    Points 1-4 are fine. But after that what you will get is more SMP’s like the MegaDeath band member. Plus you would get alot more CoWo and TNC churches. Also you will find that the “teachers and theologians” brougnt in would be the Matthew Becker’s on the LCMS roster.

    As pointed out above, you will get more Atlantic Districts and Benke’s. Is that what the LCMS really needs?

  14. November 25th, 2012 at 09:20 | #14

    Gaius et al,

    These are good points. Here is a response:

    1. It is really bad right now. This cannot be worse and I beleive it will be better.
    2. Having resident pastors as DP’s eliminates those who want to be first and have a softer life.
    3. Electing for theological aptitude will make some difference. It will not solve everything but would make it better.
    4. With a stronger DP with less congregations to supervise, the liberal, unprepared pastors can be removed from office.
    5. So we circle wagons. Grow a stronger albeit it maybe smaller synod, from the only point of strength – doctrinal purity, and then grow new districts with the products of these smaller more orthodox districts.

  15. ralph luedtke
    November 25th, 2012 at 09:34 | #15

    may those congregations and servants destroyed by some expedient type dp’s who cannot/will not acknowledge church members love for TRUTH—be blessed with all the faithful in HIM by grace-while souls are lost

  16. GaiusKurios
    November 25th, 2012 at 13:53 | #16

    Rev. Rossow,
    I like the idea of having more DP’s over much smaller districts, say about 20-30. The DP’s should be full time pastors of congregations and like you suggest visit the congregations in the distirct annually. Some help from the district congregations could help with a part time administrative assistant and supply preaching at the DP’s congregation when he is visiting. The most important thing is to have DP’s who are real confessional theologians. That is the most difficult part. How can we get to that point?

  17. Beggar
    November 25th, 2012 at 20:21 | #17

    Martin R. Noland :
    @Pastor Tim Rossow #8
    . . .
    I think that the greatest contribution that Brothers of John the Steadfast has made, so far, besides the resuscitation of Issues, etc., is the “lifelong education” of Lutheran laymen who are “stuck” in congregations where they don’t get good Lutheran preaching or teaching. For many of these people, BJS is a life-saver.
    . . .

    AMEN!!!

  18. helen
    November 26th, 2012 at 12:15 | #18

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #14

    Re electing better DP’s: MN So had a chance and proved it hadn’t learned a thing.

    Most other DP’s who didn’t retire were re-elected, although by the comments on this and other blogs, there are very few DP’s who encourage confessional Pastors.

    How is this change toward a more theological DP going to take place, when “6 hour adult instruction”, and confirmation without catechisms are dumbing down the laity… not by accident.
    People who don’t know what Lutheran is will fall for the non denominational willowcreek claptrap.

  19. ralph luedtke
    November 26th, 2012 at 13:36 | #19

    bod’s check all monies to put missionaries back in business and do the real work of the Lord and no more golf and member paid “fun”-how sickening and sinful waste—–and dp’s we will continue to read and learn from blogs like bjs—–district support of all missionaries for salvation of souls and saving churches -with His WORD-tell your boys to stay home and preach the truth of forgiveness w/o compromise.churches-stay true even when membership and leaders fight truth—report to follow to Jesus’ glory

  20. ralph luedtke
    November 27th, 2012 at 09:16 | #20

    to spiritual problems in a church-in writing sec wrote at meeting, dp said I have no answers-just pray! what???? no answers? mr dp! what about sin and grace/Bible and Confessions????? no answers-just pray-shameful and thanks for acknowledging our letters of concern to remain Lutheran as founding members to save our inner city church——NOT! and thanks for sending cronies to send messages from you-must have had more important things-like slashing missionaries-right? was it because a missionary protested before you and others about TCN?

  21. David Hartung
    November 27th, 2012 at 09:21 | #21

    Pastor Tim Rossow :
    Helen et. al.,
    It is pretty obvious that leaving pastoral training in the hands of the seminaries does not guarantee no seminiex. As a matter of fact, duh, seminex happened at a seminary.

    In fact, Seminex happened at the seminary which prided itself on having an extensive program of theological instruction. The problem was addressed by a graduate of the seminary which for most of its history had provided a very limited theological education. This sort of destroys the idea that those of us who are being educated through the SMP program are automatically less faithful than those of you who have had a more traditional education. To be blunt, History does not support the accusations which are so rampant in this forum.

  22. ralph luedtke
    November 27th, 2012 at 09:28 | #22

    @Beggar #17
    another amen!

  23. Tim Schenks
    November 27th, 2012 at 09:32 | #23

    David Hartung :

    Pastor Tim Rossow :Helen et. al.,It is pretty obvious that leaving pastoral training in the hands of the seminaries does not guarantee no seminiex. As a matter of fact, duh, seminex happened at a seminary.

    In fact, Seminex happened at the seminary which prided itself on having an extensive program of theological instruction. The problem was addressed by a graduate of the seminary which for most of its history had provided a very limited theological education. This sort of destroys the idea that those of us who are being educated through the SMP program are automatically less faithful than those of you who have had a more traditional education. To be blunt, History does not support the accusations which are so rampant in this forum.

    Faithfulness was not an issue with the Specific Ministry Pastoral Program. The objection to SMPP in 2007 was that they were to be dumber, cheaper (yet ordained) alternatives to real pastors.

  24. Rev. McCall
    November 27th, 2012 at 09:40 | #24

    @David Hartung #21
    I’m not sure what argument gets destroyed. Faithfulness is not necessarily in question, I believe most SMPP guys are very sincere in their faithfulness. In general though is it easier or harder to be faithful when you have less education and knowledge of God’s Word? If you were choosing a doctor would you be more comfortable with one who had earned a 1 year degree online from home or the one who went to medical school? Sure, bad pastors and less faithful pastors can come from the seminary’s just as they can from the SMPP program. I’d say the difficulty in them being faithful would certainly increase based on the amount of education and training they receive. If something is worth doing, why not do it the best way possible?

  25. Brad
    November 27th, 2012 at 10:02 | #25

    @Martin R. Noland #10
    “For many pastors stuck in circuits or congregations with no sympathetic ears, BJS is a life-line of sanity and real Lutheranism. For such pastors, listening to the BJS “brothers” talk about the ministry, about Jesus, the Word, and the Gospel is therapy–and they ignore the less attractive parts of blogdom.”

    Indeed– and with much thanks to God.

  26. November 27th, 2012 at 17:13 | #26

    Rev. McCall :If you were choosing a doctor would you be more comfortable with one who had earned a 1 year degree online from home or the one who went to medical school?

    Is that a fair comparison? I mean, you trust a medical doctor with something as valuable as your health, while your pastor deals only with your eternal soul. Oh, wait!

    :)

  27. John Rixe
    November 27th, 2012 at 19:50 | #27

    @Brad #25

    - and they ignore the less attractive parts of blogdom.

    What’s not to like? 

    On one thread there’s comments requesting prayers to dissolve the Council of Presidents.

    On another thread we learn that absence of praise bands is a mark of the true church.

    On the  ”Try a Little Kindness” thread we discover that LCMS pastors are “a bunch of little popes who want more obedience, more money, more power, and more drones for their army.”

    ….and all this in the last few days :)

  28. Andrew
    November 27th, 2012 at 20:37 | #28

    @Pastor Tim Rossow #14
    Pastor Rossow,
    There is also the possibility of further splintering over doctrinal differences. The LCMS already struggles because it is not strong enough to handle the problems and not being able to do anything about it. Would this lead to further splintering instead of growing a strong core?

  29. ralph luedtke
    November 28th, 2012 at 01:58 | #29

    @Andrew #28
    NOT -not being able but WILL NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT ERROR AND SHAME AND SIN OF CONTROLLED CHAOS -destroying souls churches pastors and families-watch who hangs around our many dp popes-cg types with big money—–follow the money and see that our problems are due to expedient dp’s like ours——-with a large broom and rug-pathetic to let 20 years of congegation unfaithfulness go wild because the pastor was a nice guy yet pushing for blind eyes closed ears and covered mouths and plenty of sin unanswered -and our big leaders knew it—repent/resign to clean up the LCMS—you can use the perks of position until you write your letters—letting people continue in their sin-sick

  30. sue wilson
    November 29th, 2012 at 10:02 | #30

    @ Martin Nolan #2 THANKS!!

  31. ralph luedtke
    November 29th, 2012 at 13:56 | #31

    Jesus deserves better and many of the better have been defrocked because they faithfully dared to address sin and expected all districts and synod to assist-and the leaders did not like the expectation to defend HIS revealed truth Golf anyone?

  32. sue wilson
    November 29th, 2012 at 14:03 | #32

    @Pr Rossow
    “…he probably does not have to issue such warnings at his conferences because he actually gets out and visits his pastors and views their libraries in person. What a concept, an overseer who is overseeing!”

    You worry me when you begin to sound like the LCMS version of “Fahrenheit 401″

  33. Tim Schenks
    November 30th, 2012 at 05:45 | #33

    sue wilson :@Pr Rossow“…he probably does not have to issue such warnings at his conferences because he actually gets out and visits his pastors and views their libraries in person. What a concept, an overseer who is overseeing!”
    You worry me when you begin to sound like the LCMS version of “Fahrenheit 401?

    I’ll have to warn my pastor to get rid of that book on Rabbinic Judaism that I gave him a few years ago.

  34. John Rixe
    November 30th, 2012 at 07:39 | #34

    Sue Wilson

    Back in the 1950′s the circuit visitors in Minnesota actually did examine the office libraries of pastors.  Everyone soon learned to keep controversial material at home.

  35. Tim Schenks
    November 30th, 2012 at 09:17 | #35

    John Rixe :Sue Wilson
    Back in the 1950?s the circuit visitors in Minnesota actually did examine the office libraries of pastors.  Everyone soon learned to keep controversial material at home.

    Back then the pastor’s offices were at home.

  36. John Rixe
    December 1st, 2012 at 13:04 | #36

    @Tim Schenks #35

    Respectfully – no. At least not in the cities.

    - Child of the 40′s

  37. mbw
    December 2nd, 2012 at 18:57 | #37

    Pastor Tim Rossow :
    John the Whiner,
    Do you only pray for likely things?
    Do you make decisions based on principle or based on what is likely?

    For example we pray in church for good government and peace on earth all the time because those are actually His will.

    There must really be a limited window of time for our good synodical leadership to make the right, BIG changes. If that fails, then it will be time for plan B — which I trust is in the works. And will come from the bloggers.

  38. December 2nd, 2012 at 19:38 | #38

    mbw :
    There must really be a limited window of time for our good synodical leadership to make the right, BIG changes.

    President Harrison made it clear when he published “It’s Time” that his goal is to go slowly enough to unite 85% of the synod in doctrine and practice. His time “limit” is about a decade long:

    “It is time for a serious, decade-long effort—a non-politically organized and driven effort to regain theological and practical unity in the Synod. This route is the hard route. It will take time and effort. It will take courage. It will take men and women of integrity. It will also result in a Synod 85% united and on the path to even greater unity…”

  39. John Rixe
    December 2nd, 2012 at 20:09 | #39

    @mbw #37

    Thanks. I understand now. Praying for dissolution of the Council of Presidents is the same as praying for peace on earth. It’s obviously God’s will. Really?

  40. Carl Vehse
    December 2nd, 2012 at 20:25 | #40

    @Pastor Ted Crandall #38: His time “limit” is about a decade long

    We’re already 22 percent of the way through that “time limit.” And don’t forget the quincentennial anniversary of the Reformation will be hyped 24/7 during 2016-2017, so not much else will get done then.

    And even if the 85% goal is achieved, what about that 15 percent of synodical members (Will they be named?) who remain heterdox (or heretical) in doctrine, practice and mission (and have been allowed to remain in the Synod)? Or does the 15 percent also include Lutherans who, in addition to any Koinonia project, wanted ecclesiastical supervision applied to unrepentant heretical or heterodox synodical members for the past decade?

  41. December 7th, 2012 at 05:32 | #41

    Carl Vehse :Or does the 15 percent also include Lutherans who, in addition to any Koinonia project, wanted ecclesiastical supervision applied to unrepentant heretical or heterodox synodical members for the past decade?

    Now there’s a good question!

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