Pastor Wilken,

I like the idea of having conventions every year. Maybe then some things would actually get done/resolved.

Oh, what about making sure the President of the Synod is a theologian?

I have to protest “Your Grandfather’s Church,” because two generations from now “Your Grandfather’s Church” would refer to this church.

PTS for me.

I like it. Especially the part where a layman actually might get a vote.

BTW, does anybody know where you can get a nice room with a view in Woonsocket?

Maybe we would/could get back to doing some real mission work?

Instead of cancelling IssuesEtc., and recalling missionaries.

Great idea…unless your relatives live in Woonsocket.
Can’t have this here nepotism (that the synod has run on for 150 years.)

I hear Mount Olive – Woonsocket has only pit toilets, and they’re on the other side of the parsonage from the church.

There were a few loud-spoken pietists in the congregation way back when the Woonsocket town council was deciding where to lay the sewer pipes. A few pietists, and a the rest of ‘em tight-wad Germans… well, let’s just say there wasn’t much chance Mount Olive was going to get flush toilets. Ever.

Better include Deep Woods Off! in the benefits packages. Those skeeters are nasty in the summer, and it’s a long walk round the other side of the parsonage.

-Jenny

fwiw, my wife says that Woonsocket melons are pretty tasty.

Synod, Inc., is a dinosaur.

Think of the list of organizations in another thread that Lutherans support independently of anything that comes from the Purple Palace. What, exactly, does Synod, Inc., provide that’s needed, that doesn’t duplicate the work of the entities on that list?

I heard someone opine that the whole restructuring convocation is, at heart, a measure to perpetuate the bureaucracy. This made some sense to me, for as I see it, Synod, Inc., is a bureaucracy that really is serving no one but itself.

Todd’s proposal? Take it. I’m presuming, of course, that the voter’s assembly at Mt. Olive, Woonsocket, will vet it, first.

I do not see the need for restructuring. A more honest response to the situation would be to have a public funeral.

All old movements(Synod,Inc.)need to be FLUSHED!!!

Is Woonsocket a real place, or is this a Lake Woebegone kinda Lutheran joke I am not familiar with?
Pit toilets, mosquitoes, and nice melons. Now that’s a skit.

And I say Wilken’s plan is good. Let’s do it. Can we? How?

Isn’t another Blazek zinger overdue on this?

The real question is, how can we make these desires known to the task force. I have little hope that they’ll listen, but, on the other hand, BECAUSE they’ve requested feedback, if we don’t make a concerted, public effort to counter with ideas of our own, then we’ll have no one to blame but ourselves.

I add one: term limits on the Praesidium. With one year terms, four possible served terms TOTAL, be it pres or vp. (There are more than enough capable pastors out there that we don’t need one pope running the show for his whole lifetime.)

Revfisk,

I call for a single 2 year term for all members of the Praesidium. No consecutive terms.

The Southern Baptists run a 16,000,000 member church body with short term presidents and seldom have the same president twice. They seem to manage just fine.

TW

Woonsocket, SD, is indeed a real place. My late father was once a pastor in that circuit. We thought of Woonsocket as rather uptown compared to our community of approximately 200 people. At any rate, Woonsocket 40 years ago was not as rustic as some of the commenters here suggest, and I am sure it is less so today. Personally I think it would be a great location for the synodical headquarters.

Speaking of the Southern Baptists, I read some recent news item that said they support 5,000 missionaries around the world. If you assume proportional parity, if the Southern Baptists with 16 million members can support 5,000, the LCMS with 2.5 million members should be able to support 782 missionaries, or at least much more than 70.

Ahh, David, but remember that the Southern Baptist Convention has a very mixed up (practically nonexistent) understanding of the Office of the Ministry, aka “everyone a minister,” or something like that. We ARE keeping up — with a mixed up doctrine of the Ministry, with decision theology (aka synergism which, logically, must end with the monster of uncertainty or in self-pious Pharisaism), etc. It is rather sad when you stop to think about it.

Excellent point, Pastor Wollenburg. I was thinking strictly in terms of the financial requirements of maintaining a “missionary” (ordained or otherwise) in a foreign post. Of course, if you add in the time and cost of the theological education expected of a missionary pastor, it would affect the numbers somewhat. But I still think the LCMS should be able to support more than 70 (of which only about half are, in fact, ordained).

Great plan!

You should use it when the break from Missouri happens!

My plan.

1. Organize a walk out of confessional congregations from Missouri.
2. Put the TW plan into effect.
3. Restore the Synodical Conference.
4. See a resurgence of confessional/traditional Lutheranism in North America.

Jon Townsend

Has anyone passed this proposal to Rev. Michael Bagnall of Mount Olive Lutheran Church. With a baptised membership of 19, confirmed – 19, and the average weekly attendance of 18 (who has to stay at home to tend the farm?), we should be prepared for some serious downsizing of synodical bureaucracy to fit them into that basement. Are they really that friendly to squeeze them into such a small area. And don’t plan on Mt. Olive increasing it’s air-conditioning budget (summer) and bring an axe for winter (chopping wood). All meals are pot-luck; good luck finding the pot!

Dennis wrote:

“…we should be prepared for some serious downsizing of synodical bureaucracy to fit them into that basement.”

My point exactly.

TW

Pr. Wilken,
We at Mt. Olive Lutheran Church in Woonsocket S.D. would welcome any and all orthodox Lutheran Brethren into our fold. If there are concerns about the size of our basement, we will make room…the parsonage also has five bedrooms, beer in the fridge, and a well stocked humidor…and as a former disciple of the Reverend Edward Balfour, there is also the possibility of scotch upon request (I am a bourbon man myself) I assure you that we do have indoor facilities, and they do work…and I am sure that the owners of the “Dew Drop Inn”, would be very happy to give you a room with a view of the lake. I would suggest a can of Deep Woods Off, as the mosquitoes are quite bad here in the summer, but the melons (actually from Forestburg just down the road) are some of the finest I have ever tasted. For those who desire it Private Confession is available on Saturday nights preceding the Divine Service, and the common cup has been taken out of retirement amd restored to its proper place on the altar. So ya’ll come, we’ll take right good care of ya.

“I call for a single 2 year term for all members of the Praesidium. No consecutive terms.”

I don’t know if I like that idea. It removes cronyism, corruption, and all those other great “perks” of politics. (Written tongue in cheek) 8^)

Given Pr. Bagnall’s wonderful description of Mount Olive Lutheran Church, the surrounding vacinity (sans mosquitos) and the confessionally stocked parsonage, I propose we have our first meeting of BJS here. At least, before we cram the basement of the church full of squabbling bureaucrats.
Peace

Mount Olive Lutheran Church
PO Box 264
Woonsocket, SD 57385

LCMS Directory Page:
http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/locators/nchurches/c_detail.asp?C991614

Can someone hook up Mt. Olive with a web page or blog?!?

Confessional Lutheran Woodstock? Woodstock almost sounds like Woonsocket after a few of brews from the aforementioned ‘fridge.

I hereby nominate Pastor Michael Bagnall for Synod president. He has all the qualifications necessary. Stogies and Lutheran Beverages.

As far as Pr. Bagnall’s theological qualifications I can vouch for those as well. I am currently serving in a neighboring parish.

19 baptized and 19 confirmed members?

How can they afford a pastor????

God bless them!

Snake Oil and Used Cars

I know I have mentioned previously that I was formerly a pentecostal. Because of this I know something about religious hucksterism. I have seen the religious fads come and go and have heard the sales pitch of some of the best religious pitchmen. I can smell snake oil a mile away. I know that smooth sounding engine will begin to smoke and stall just a short time after it leaves the lot. No matter how enthusiastic the pitchman might be, or how much he raves about his product, it is still snake oil medicine or a lemon of a car.

“Walking Together – The LCMS Future, Proposals and Possibilities for Consideration and Discussion, Presented by Blue Ribbon Task Force on Synod Structure and Governance” is just the latest in a long list of ideas whose time should never come. There is already a lot of discussion about the particulars of these proposals on the web. Many are already commenting on the manner in which it would concentrate even more power SPK’s hands. The high sounding language hides the nasty little secret–or maybe not such a secret–that this is a power grab. With such power comes potential coercion and with coercion comes bondage.

Walking together? Hardly. Walking away from the Synod’s original raison d’être. Walking away from the Synod as a servant of the churches. Walking away from sound doctrine and practice. Do we really trust the firm that brought us such wonderfully thought out products as Yankee Stadium or Ablaze? Will Synod Inc. truly help us walk in the truth of God’s Word and the Lutheran Confessions?

Walking together means we value the same things. Should we value SPK’s leadership thus far? Mmmm? Should we wish him to give him even more power and less accountability? Mmmm?

Well, if that is how things are then maybe we had better walk away. Snake oil won’t cure us. That lemon won’t get us there. God’s Word and the Confessions show us how to walk together. The founders of this Synod truly valued them and relied on them. With those who value the Word and Sacraments we can walk.

Last line should read “Word and Confessions”. The other came out automatically! My hands seem to have a mind of their own, or perhaps its what athletes call muscle memory?!

Pr. Wilken,

You surely aren’t out to win any popularity contests with the current administration are you? Good! Unfortunately, you probably won’t get much support from them on your plan either.

I would wholeheartedly support this plan in order that everyone in leadership roles is accountable and also a lame-duck the minute they are elected.

One other thing, at the rate of elections you would have everyone serve a post at some point in their career.

Everyone a synodical president!

It’s only the next logical step.

TW

The synodical members who have been on the Commission on Constitutional Matter within the past 16 years should be declared by the convention as ineligible to hold any further synodical offices or positions on synodical commissions. The vacuous CCM opinion, Ag. 1915, from January, 1992, the failure of CCM members to overturn that opinion, and the CCM’s subsequent reassertion in the December, 2001, opinion, 01-2240, are examples of malfeasance, nonfeasance, and misfeasance in office.

It is the 1992 CCM opinion that has been largely responsible for setting up the popish throne in the Missouri Synod. The delegates at the last three conventions are responsible for what they have dumped on it.

Carl,

Agreed.

The operative phrase from the CCM was: “only the Synod in
convention has the right to call the President of the Synod to account.”

But, for all practical purposes, the president of synod controls every aspect of the synodical convention. The president of synod can (through his hand-picked floor committees) decide what questions the synod in convention can and cannot entertain –EXCEPT ONE. The president of synod still must to stand for reelection against a slate of other candidates.

Short of turning him out of office, the laity have no other way of holding the synodical president accountable.

TW

Two other options: massive financial boycotts, voting with our feet. They may survive as an organization but without the heart and soul (confessional pastors and laity) it will be a company without capital resources to expand. When a company forgets what it is all about and loses its branding it fails. Synod Inc. is trying to sell an entire menu when it really should concentrate on serving good coffee (to borrow an image from Starbucks). As for me I’m not buying what they are selling.

I love the Wilken Plan. But, nothing like it is ever going to be implemented in the LCMS, and we all know it. Don’t we?

On “Issues, Etc.” yesterday, a listener asked whether or not Todd felt that those of us who are unhappy with the direction our synod is travelling would consider leaving and joining the WELS. I thought Todd handled this well, explaining that, with all due respect to the WELS and the ELS, he doesn’t see any less influence of the erosive and corrosive movements of the CGM, etc., which rob people of sound doctrine and practice, and even of the Gospel itself, in those synods. Then, he added that he hasn’t yet found a pristine church body in which those of us who are unhappy with our own church bodies could flee, and that he thinks we’ll find such a church body only after the resurrection.

This is most certainly true. A perfect confessional Lutheran church body will never exist this side of heaven. That will just have to wait until we leave this sinful world. But, is this reason enough for us to remain in a heterodox church body? Not according to Walther and Pieper. Not according to Luther. Not according to the apostles and Jesus, our Lord.

It is true that there will be no absence of trouble and tribulation afflicting the Church Militant throughout the NT era, and especially in the days immediately preceding our Lord’s glorious return, but we are called to be faithful to the End, willing to suffer all, even death, rather than fall away from the truth. We are called to mark and avoid those who have abandoned the truth, in order that the good confession might proceed from we who remain steadfast in God’s Word.

So, the question I have is: When do we say, “Enough is enough!” What will be the last straw for us? What will it take for us to realize that we can no longer, in good conscience, remain in the heterodox church body the LCMS has become?

No, I don’t believe we could establish a perfect synod, but surely we could do better. Surely we could establish a synod which does more than pay lip service to Scripture and our Confessions, but actually strives to adhere to them and demands that those who belong to our fellowship do the same. Surely we could establish a synod which takes doctrine and practice seriously and employs ecclesiastical supervisors who actually oversee the same. Surely we could establish a synod which lauds blessed unity, rather than “blessed diversity,” whatever that means. Surely we could establish a synod which exists solely to support the proclamation of the Gospel by training pastors and by sending actual missionaries into the field. Surely we could establish a synod whose theologians could not care less about political correctness, but unapologetically (and, actually, apologetically) defend the truth and point out error. Surely we could establish such a synod. It’s been done before. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it would be faithful, for, after all, part of being faithful means that we acknowledge and confess the truth that we’re not perfect, but sinners in need of Christ.

So, I’m all for the Wilken Plan, but I’m a realist and know that the Wilken Plan will never see the light of day unless we take seriously the Townsend Plan (#18). Are we ready to take that plan seriously? If not, why not?

In Christ,
Pastor Messer

Rev. Messer #34,

We should keep working hard to reform the LCMS but not rule out the Townsend plan.

Any synod worth anything ought to be formed on the basis of confession of the truth and rejection of error. A body formed around the Townsend plan should be founded on true confession giving congregations specifics to confess and specifics to reject.

Pastor Rossow

Pastor Rossow

Re the WELS/ELS comments from Issues, Etc:

Pr. Wilken is right in his stance. There exists some of the same church growth elements within the WELS/ELS. WELS has a tendency towards low church – which I do not like.

There is a big “however” here though – I am convinced that those going through the acute pains now being felt in the LCMS due to the metamorphosis into American Evangelicalism would actually have a fighting chance at winning the battle against church growth and false missionalism if the Synodical Conference were restored and the congregations that are currently being alienated claimed confessional protest and asked for fellowship with the WELS/ELS.

I must admit to being heavily influence by Pr. Cascione and Redeemer in St. Clair Shores, MI in taking this position.

The twist is they chose to go it alone.

If you look at their fellowship statements, they basically state that communion is open to those holding membership in congregations that belonged to the Synodical Conference.

If we want our Grandfather’s Church back, the Synodical Conference is where we should re-start. (I would like to see it, so long as I don’t have to give up weekly communion and private absolution – both of which weren’t so widely practiced in our grandfather’s church)

TW,

“Everyone a synodical president.”

That’s perfect. And, with all due respect to your well-thought-out plan, that’s the best restructuring idea circulating.

Oscar Feucht, eat your heart out.

The First Constitution of the Missouri Synod – compare to today’s constitution and new proposals:

http://www.stpaulsbrookfield.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=4&Itemid=60

Oops, this one should be better:

http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/239

I’m just a simple laymen and not sure how the synod officers are compensated now. But I’d suggest that since all the officers are to be ordained pastors they ought to remain in the employ of those they serve as pastors.

So the synod would pay no salaries or reimburse no expenses to its officers. The synod would only reimburse the congregation, university, seminary etc that they primarily serve at the district suggested rates for the portion of their time they spend on synod duties.

Employ probably was a bad choice of words but I think my point stands.

I move that we nail this plan to the door where the Task Force on Structure and Governance meets so that we can be sure that they’ll see it. I will personally pay for the nail and the mallet if someone else will cover the cost of heavy parchment paper and quill ink.

We should probably create a judicial council whose only purpose is to provide confessional oversight for the actions of the synod executive and the convention. They would check the actions of the part-time synod against the Book of Concord and nullify any actions that are deemed to be un-confessional. I think Pr. Wilken would make a fine chief justice. …part time of course.

Mike,

Count me in for the parchment paper.

Pastor Rossow

Modification on qualifications for District President: must have part-time call to a real parish.

Mr Townsend writes: “…those going through the acute pains now being felt in the LCMS…would actually have a fighting chance…if the Synodical Conference were restored and the congregations that are currently being alienated claimed confessional protest and asked for fellowship with the WELS/ELS.”

Actually, one might think that the ILC exists as a modern day Synodical Conference of sorts, except that its president is now His Majesty, Pope Kieschnick. (Nafzger’s days didn’t help.) What’s going on? It would be a good rebuke for the LCMS if something like the LCC or the European Lutheran Counference declared an end of communion with the LCMS.

It is the 1992 CCM opinion that has been largely responsible for setting up the popish throne in the Missouri Synod. The delegates at the last three conventions are responsible for what they have dumped on it.
Comment by Carl Vehse — August 23, 2008 @ 11:27 am

Comment by Joe, re: Rev., Mr (?) Vehse’s comment.

As a delegate to the last three conventions, I took a bit of umbrage at the above comment. Upon reflection, I reluctantly had to agree with Mr. Vehse, yet with the following comments: In 2001, the conservatives were disorganized and not ready (no plan). JF was flexing its muscles, and the Pres. election went south. If we’d have had our act together it would have been a no brainer–we had the votes. In 2004, we were pretty disorganized and not ready–it never got to a second ballot. In 2007, we were extremely disorganized and not ready. We got steamrolled by the admin. and JF from start to finish. The vote on the special convention was a masterpiece of political legerdermain (sic)–we were bamboozled. Many of us saw it coming, but with no debate, we wuz had. Yes, we can accept the blame–not because we didn’t oppose the CCM issues, and the incumbent(s), but because we were, for all practical purposes, disorganized, unready, disheartened, and JF ran circles around us. Mea’s Culpa’s!

Anyway, I would add another amendment to the new Wilken Structure proposal: Outlaw any and all political groups, and y’all know what I mean.

If you want to choose a “hill to die on”, the new structure is it. Otherwise, pack your bags.