Steadfast Office – Is AC V Alive?

June 21st, 2012 Post by

Associate Editor’s Note:  Please remember Pastor Wurst, his congregation and the whole community of Duluth, MN in your prayers as they have been recently struck with horrible flooding.

Is AC V Still Alive?

In my post on the Steadfast Office – The Divine Call (here), I spoke about the meaning and necessity of the rite vocatus, that is, the right call or the right vocation. Some people disagreed with me. They rested their argument, that is, their defense, on ordination giving the man the right and duty to preach the Word of God and to administer the Sacraments rightly.

I agree with The Rev. Dr. C.F.W. Walther that it is the Call that makes the man a pastor. The ordination rite is a public ratification of Christ’s Call and sending to preach, teach, and to administer the Sacraments rightly. (Walther, Church & Ministry, 164-165)

This brings us back to A.D. 1989 when The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) officially abolished the Confessional teaching of the rite vocatus (the right call) and passed resolution forsaking/abolishing Augustana XIV.

If the LC—MS abolished Article XIV, making it possible for any man to preach the Word of God and administer the sacraments, then what’s stopping her from allowing women to preach? Why do men still have to go to the seminary to study the doctrine as St. Paul writes, “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” (1 Tim. 4:16)

So, if Article XIV of the Augsburg Confession is gone, is Article V still alive?

Let’s take a look at Article V and see what the Reformers say to the world:

1] That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, 2] the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear 3] the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ’s sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ’s sake.

4] They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works. [endnote 1]

Is the Predigtamt, Preaching Office, for anyone? Can anyone or everyone do what the Lord Jesus commands to be done in this holy office, that is, preach the Gospel and administer the sacraments?

Dr. Walther in his Kirche und Amt (Church and Ministry), states:

“Although Holy Scripture attests that all believing Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6, 5:10), it at the same time teaches very expressly that in the church there is an office to teach, feed, and rule, which Christians by virtue of their general calling as Christians do not possess. (161)

Hear the Word of the Lord.

In his first Epistle to the Church in Corinth, St. Paul writes, “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?” (1 Cor. 12:29)

Later, in his Epistle to the Church in Rome, he writes, “And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” (Romans 10:15)

Later, St. James writes in his Epistle to the Church, “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” (James 3:1)

The blessed Doctor Luther wrote these words in his Letter to Eberhard yon der Tanhen Concerning the Sneaks and Secret Preachers: [endnote 2]

“The secular government [Amt] must also see to it … and like the spiritual government must insist on the call, asking the sneak or his host: ‘Where do you come from? Who has sent you?’ and so forth, as stated above. In addition it must ask the host: ‘Who commanded you to shelter the sneak and to listen to his sneaky preaching? How do you know that the sneak has been commanded to teach you or that you are to learn of him? Why did you not inform the pastor or the government? Why do you forsake your church in which you were baptized, instructed, confirmed, and to which, according to God’s order, you belong, hiding yourself in a corner? Who has given you power to split the parish and to create factions among us? Who has taught you to despise your pastor, to judge him, and behind his back to condemn him before he had a hearing or was accused? Why have you become such a judge of your pastor, indeed, your own judge?’

“All such wrongs, and many more, everyone commits who cleaves to the sneaks, and therefore he should justly be charged with them. I have good hopes that if the [secular] government would be diligent in this matter, it would be of great help, and many pious persons would help to make known such vagabonds, if they would know what great danger is connected with the sneaks and that the call or command matters so much. If we would not insist firmly on the call or command, there would at last remain no more church. For as the sneaks now come to us, desiring to split up and destroy our churches, so later other sneaks would invade, split up, and destroy their churches, and there never will be an end to the sneaking and splitting up, one after the other, and soon nothing will be left of the church on earth. That is just what the devil wants and tries to do by these factious spirits and sneaks.

“Therefore, you either prove your call and command, or you keep silence and quit preaching. For it is called an office and indeed an office of preaching. But no one can have an office except and without a command or call. [endnote 3]

If the LC—MS has already abolished Article XIV, and the congregations can let anyone preach and administer the sacraments, is it still Church? Are we just playing around with the idea of Church? Is it business where the lobbyists get what they want through coercion, corruption, and sin?

How far do we go? Do we march through the Lutheran Confessions and say, if we’ve axed XIV, then V is dead? What happens to IV, the very foundation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church? Well, if the Church is gone, then justification was for nothing. Keep going. If IV isn’t valid, then what about III – the Son of God? Where does it end? Maybe after we get rid of Article II, then we’ll be alright. We’ll have joined the ranks and file of a monotheistic world. No sin. No Savior. No faith. Just good moral deeds and eternal condemnation.

 


Endnotes –

[1] Concordia Triglotta, German-Latin-English, online edition found at bookofconcord.org

[2] Walther, C. (1999). Church and ministry : Witness of the Evangelical Lutheran Church on the question of the church and the ministry (electronic ed.) (167-168, 173). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

[3] Walther, C. (1999). Church and ministry : Witness of the Evangelical Lutheran Church on the question of the church and the ministry (electronic ed.) (167–168). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.






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  1. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 11:35 | #1

    John, if lay persons can not forgive, then the Gospel is no longer Gospel. Consider, dear brother, the ramifications of what you are insisting on. You need not go to such lengths to defend AC V, XIV and XXVIII.

    If you and Josh would but move from “can not” to “should not” when speaking about these matters, we would be in perfect agreement. But when you say “can not” instead of “should not” you are headed in a very dangerous direction, for reasons I’ve already explained.

    I really can think of nothing more to say.

    You keep telling me I am ignorant. Yes, I’m am ignorant about a great many things. Here however it is not my ignorance at issue, it is the Gospel. Therefore, I leave you simply with a final appeal to stop taking your argument down this road. As my namesake once wrote:

    I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away!—

    2 Cor. 10

  2. Rev. Brian Buckleww
    June 23rd, 2012 at 11:38 | #2

    This discussion has really made me pause and think about our Lord’s Absolutoon. Rev. Osbun, I especially appreciate and agree with your comments in post #98. By the way, did you know that the first time I ever heard COMPLINE was by you at the seminary? You have given me much to think about in maybe starting to pray COMPLINE with my people some night of the week. We pray COMPLINE at the end of the Voters meeting at one of the parishes I serve.

  3. Rev. Brian Buckleww
    June 23rd, 2012 at 11:40 | #3

    I use the right hand column for COMPLINE.

  4. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 11:43 | #4

    @Rev. Paul T. McCain #104

    I’m sorry Paul. I have no idea what you mean. Are you saying this discussion is over? Are you going off to another discussion because you don’t understand this one?

    Again, I never said that the laity cannot forgive. Your assertion is false. The laity can forgive one another when they transgress one another. However, they do not have universal authority to forgive sins to whomever and wherever they please. They are to deal with their brothers and sisters one-on-one. Please, Paul, please, read the Scriptures, especially Matthew 5 and Matthew 18. Jesus is very direct and clear about this issue.

    If you must go, then go. You don’t have a valid argument.

  5. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 11:55 | #5

    There you go, again, John. Choosing to go into pill bull mode rather than sticking with respectful, fraternal discussion mode. Perhaps your friends can help you recognize the difference, as mine have been helping me.

    I do hope you come to think otherwise on these matters and to take much greater care when expressing yourself on them.

  6. June 23rd, 2012 at 12:20 | #6

    “The Gospel is always Absolution” is a philosophical statement that Walther made a very long time ago (and others may have made it, too, but I know that Walther made it). But it is not a helpful statement for this dialogue. It simply muddies the water and fails to provide the requested Scriptural/Confessional support for the assertion that every Christian is authorized to absolve all sinners of all sins in the stead of Christ.

    No one doubts that Peter proclaimed the Gospel to the crowds on the Day of Pentecost. I would assert, however, that he was not “absolving” the Jerusalem crowd in so doing. He “absolved” them very explicitly by applying the Sacrament of Holy Baptism to those who believed his message. “Repent and be baptized…for the forgiveness of sins.” Not, “I am right here, right now, by preaching the Gospel of Christ, releasing all of you within earshot of my voice of all your sins against God.” Absolution was given in the Sacrament.

    So also in the sacrament of Holy Absolution. Not every telling/assuring/comforting with the message of Christ is a Holy Absolution. Holy Absolution was a rite given to the Church to be exercised through her called ministers (cf. Ap:XIII), not by laymen, just as baptism (almost always) and the Sacrament of the Altar (always) is authorized only to the called ministers.

    Here’s a bit of irony. I’m the WELS guy, but I agree here with Pr. Wurst and Pr. Osbun, who seem to me to be embracing the position held by the Lutheran Confessions. It almost seems to me that other positions expressed here more closely reflect the typical WELS position, expressed here recently in the WELS Forward in Christ magazine:

    The risen Savior said to his disciples on Easter Sunday, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” (John 20:22,23). With those words, Jesus gave every Christian the power and right to forgive sins. In the words of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), Jesus granted every believer the authority to proclaim the good news and to baptize in his name.

    To me, it would seem that you can’t have it both ways. Either John 20:22,23 is one of the examples (among others) of the institution of the Office of the Holy Ministry, or it is not. If it is, then the authority is given to be used through the Office, not apart from the Office. If it is not an example of the institution of the Office, then what is?

  7. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 12:40 | #7

    Paul, when does the Gospel ever not deliver what it promises?

  8. June 23rd, 2012 at 13:14 | #8

    @Rev. Paul T. McCain #110
    It sounds like you want to address this issue from a philosophical point of view, which, as I said, I don’t think will be entirely helpful.

    The Gospel promises come in many forms. “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” That’s a promise, and is always true. “Whoever does not believe will be condemned.” That’s also a promise, and is always true. “Whoever believes in the Son has life. Whoever does not believe in the Son will never see life, etc.” “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” “Baptism now saves you also.” All promises which any Christian can reiterate, and they’re always true.

    You can’t frame the argument over who is authorized to use the Keys around the effectiveness of the Gospel. The Word of God is powerful and effective all by itself. The question here is, who is authorized by Jesus, to whom all authority in heaven and earth has been given, to bind on earth what will be bound in heaven and to loose on earth what will be loosed in heaven.

    To what Scripture/Confessions passages are you pointing to make the assertion that a Christian, by virtue of her place in the universal priesthood, has the command and promise of Christ that whatever she binds/looses on earth will be bound/loosed in heaven?

  9. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 13:22 | #9

    Yes, to this:

    “A layman has the ability to preach, teach, administer the sacraments, and pronounce absolution, but it would be improper for him to do so. The gifts would still be just as valid and certain even in heaven, even though they were done contrary to Christ’s command and institution.”

    No, to this:

    “it doesn’t really matter who is the one proclaiming it, because forgiveness will be received no matter what.”

    Yes and no to this:

    “Am I reading you correctly?”

    No, absolutely no:

    “Only when these gifts come from the one who stands in the stead and by the command of Christ is there the sure and certain promise of these things being true.”

    The sure and certain promise is THE GOSPEL itself.

    Yes, I’m raising my ‘voice’. [That’s how it’s done Malech].

    : )

  10. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 13:35 | #10

    Josh, when you were attending seminary a couple years ago were you ever required to read Kurt Marquart’s book on The Church: Her Fellowship, Ministry and Governance?

    Just curious.

  11. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 13:37 | #11

    Josh, one more point, it is very revealing to me that you have yet to answer my very simple question:

    When is the Gospel ever not a word of forgiving absolution?

  12. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 13:44 | #12

    Thanks, I would highly recommend it to you. When you were in college you hardly knew enough to begin to understand it.

  13. Carl Vehse
    June 23rd, 2012 at 13:44 | #13

    Rev. Paul McCain’s comments regarding private absolution by a Christian layman, in Posts 39, 67, 72, 75, 76, 79, 97, 101, 104, 110, 114 and 117 are correct and congruent with Holy Scripture, the Lutheran Confessions, Martin Luther, and the Missouri Synod.

    I also agree with Rev. McCain’s Cyberbrethren article, “The Gospel is Always Absolution by Whomever it is Spoken and Whenever it is Spoken,” including his statment,

    “Also, while we are at it, let it be said, clearly, that it is equally wrong, horribly wrong and Gospel-denying, ever, to suggest that the Gospel is more “effective” or somehow of some better forgiving quality when spoken by an ordained pastor. This is nothing more, or less, than heresy.”

    And, another Lutheran also would agree with Rev. McCain. In his “Protest” document, Position 46, Dr. Carl Eduard Vehse stated: “All Christians have the right to absolve in case of need.”

  14. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 13:51 | #14

    Josh, please read Marquart’s book and read extensively in Luther. You won’t regret it.

    You are attempting to anchor certainty and assurance in the office of the ministry.

    You are looking in the wrong place.

  15. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 15:24 | #15

    Josh, maybe sometime we can discuss all this over a beer.

    For now, I fear, I’m not able to respond in a manner that would be constructive.

    God bless.

  16. Rev. John F. Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 15:32 | #16

    @Rev. Paul T. McCain #126

    Paul, do you condone the “lay ministry”? Your comments, philosophy, and interpretation of the Scriptures lead me to think you do.

    If the Gospel is all we need and anyone can deliver the goods, then why did we go to seminary?

    Is this simply a job? A wild adventure? Or, is this life and death living?

    Give me goods brother…Give me the Scripture to support your reductionism claims.

  17. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 15:57 | #17

    John, it appears you wish to insult me. Sorry, but I’m not interested. When, and if, you can comport yourself in a gentlemanly and civil manner, I’d be happy to continue the conversation. I will not fall into the trap of incivility and rude behavior. I hope some of your friends can help you understand how you can improve on this yourself.

  18. Carl Vehse
    June 23rd, 2012 at 16:05 | #18

    “Therefore we read in the second appendix to the Smalcald Articles [Treatise]: ‘Just as in the case of necessity even a layman absolves and becomes a minister and pastor of another’ [quoted according to Concordia Triglotta, p. 523] as St. Augustine writes a story that two Christians were in a ship together, of whom one baptized the other, and then was absolved by him. Here it is declared expressly that also if a layman baptizes or absolves another, he becomes at once the minister, the moment he does this, the servant of the church, the pastor of the other. Why? Because the office of a minister, or pastor, consists of baptizing, absolving, etc. the office he performs, however, makes one a minister, servant of the church, or pastor. Whoever admits that Christian layman can in a case of necessity baptize, absolve, or perform similar things, has thereby at the same time admitted that Christian lay people have the office, and therefore can, in a case of necessity, even exercise it publicly.

    “Therefore it reveals either a lack of ability to think correctly, or so great a passion of party spirit that, in a matter of their party, they do not receive what otherwise they would very well perceive; when today many say that lay persons can, in a case of necessity, administer the office, baptize, teach, absolve, etc., this we readily admit; but that they should have the office itself, that they should have it originally, that we can never admit. What folly! If the Christians did not have the office already originally, they would not be permitted, and could not exercise it even in a case of necessity, as little as a heathen; since, however, they have it already originally, then of course in a case of necessity the order must give way, when it does not serve the welfare of Christians, since the order has not been made against, but for the welfare of Christians….”

    “That therefore also our symbolic books grant the office to the entire church, i.e., to all believing Christians, is known to all who are acquainted with these precious confessions. This is stated with particular clarity in the already repeatedly quoted passage:

    “For just as the promise of the Gospel belongs certainly and immediately to the entire church, so the keys belong immediately to the entire church, because the keys are nothing else than the office whereby this promise is communicated to every one who desires it.” (Smalcald Articles, First Appendix: Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope [Quoted according to Concordia Triglotta, p. 511]

    From C.F.W. Walther, Der Lutheraner, Vol. 17, No. 22 (June 11, 1861) pp. 169-171; included in The Congregation’s Right to Choose Its Own Pastor, trans. Fred Kramer, Concordia Seminary Publications, 1997, pp. 144-146)

  19. John Eberhart
    June 23rd, 2012 at 16:07 | #19

    SO as an elder (or a Christian) when I baptise a person and I ask that person if he believes on Jesus Christ’s saving grace and ask him if he is sorry for his sins, I then can’t tell him that God is faithfull and just to forgive all his sins? I can’t tell him that the Holy Spirit gives him the faith to acknowledge that he has been forgiven and is justified to God? SO the next day he dies and is lost? I don’t believe that for a second. Gospel is forgiveness and does not operate in a vacume.

  20. Rev. John F. Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 16:11 | #20

    @Rev. Paul T. McCain #128

    Paul, I’m not insulting you. I’m asking questions. I’m asking you for your defense. I am civil. I’m not calling you names. I’ve not been rude. I just want to understand but you don’t want to all or teach.

    If you have greater wisdom than me, please enlighten me with the Scriptures.

    I think that’s fair. Show me your proof texts for universal authority for the laity.

  21. Rev. John F. Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 16:14 | #21

    @John Eberhart #130

    John, thank you for your comments and questions.

    My first question is, why are Baptizing as a layman? Where is your pastor?

  22. June 23rd, 2012 at 16:15 | #22

    @Carl Vehse #129
    I highly recommend the Rt. Rev. James Heiser’s Stewards of the Mysteries of God, in which he demonstrates some of the faulty logic (and, I would add, useless philosophizing and shameless grandstanding) in the above Walther quotation.

    To summarize very briefly, “the entire Church” does not mean each and every Christian to use individually in any and every circumstance.

  23. John Eberhart
    June 23rd, 2012 at 16:19 | #23

    If my pastor is “out of commission” he then calls me to baptise someone. Especially if it’s an emergency. According to him a Christian can baptise anyone that want’s God’s saving grace and have his sins forgiven. God is the author and I’m just a vessel by which he works. It isn’t me , it’s God working through me. I’m nothing in and of myself.

  24. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 16:41 | #24

    John, you should not do that. An emergency Baptism is one where life and death are involved. Emergency Baptism is a rare case.

    As for your astor’s teaching, as you described it, is wrong.

    This discussion is about whether Article V is still alive. According to your comments about your pastor’s teaching, I would say it is not.

    Also, if you’ve been following this discussion (de-railment), it’s not whether the Word of Gd is powerful and des what God seds it to do. This discussion is on authority.

  25. June 23rd, 2012 at 17:27 | #25

    “This discussion is on authority.”

    Indeed!

    Context Pastors Context.

    “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

    For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.””

    (Matthew 18:18-20 ESV)

    The visible Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ:

    TWO

  26. June 23rd, 2012 at 17:30 | #26

    Rev. Paul T. McCain is correct.

    I charge you with error.

    “This discussion is on authority.”

  27. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 17:57 | #27

    Josh: You may be correct. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

  28. John Eberhart
    June 23rd, 2012 at 18:09 | #28

    Pastor John Wurst :John, you should not do that. An emergency Baptism is one where life and death are involved. Emergency Baptism is a rare case.
    As for your astor’s teaching, as you described it, is wrong.
    This discussion is about whether Article V is still alive. According to your comments about your pastor’s teaching, I would say it is not.
    Also, if you’ve been following this discussion (de-railment), it’s not whether the Word of Gd is powerful and des what God seds it to do. This discussion is on authority.

    So what you are saying is I have no authority to do what? Proclaim the Gospel and it’s saving grace to the lost? If someone heard the Word and came to me to say that they believe because the Spirit has worked on them and asks God to forgive their sins, then am I supposed to tell them I don’t know if God forgave them or not and not give them any assurance that God is faithfull and just to forgive? Maybe next time someone hears the Word and wants to know if he is forgiven I will tell him to go ask a minister.

  29. June 23rd, 2012 at 18:10 | #29

    This is the strength of Gods Visible Church on earth.

    If the entire body of Christ is wiped out leaving only two, the Body of Christ survives on earth.

    The visible Church started with two and will end with one.

    IXOYC

  30. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 18:23 | #30

    John, you can only but assure them, and then tell them to go to a pastor if they really want to be sure they are forgiven.

  31. John Eberhart
    June 23rd, 2012 at 18:35 | #31

    @Mark Huntemann #137

    @Carl Vehse #129 “What folly! If the Christians did not have the office already originally, they would not be permitted, and could not exercise it even in a case of necessity, as little as a heathen; since, however, they have it already originally, then of course in a case of necessity the order must give way, when it does not serve the welfare of Christians, since the order has not been made against, but for the welfare of Christians….”
    CFW Walther

    So according to these two quotes. One from the BOC and the other from CFW Walther I have the right “authority” as a Christian to baptise.

  32. Rev. Paul T. McCain
    June 23rd, 2012 at 18:39 | #32

    On the other hand, John, you should tell your pastor to contact another pastor to do baptisms…only in a case of life/death emergency should you be baptizing.

    I assume your pastor does in fact agree with AC XIV.

  33. Carl Vehse
    June 23rd, 2012 at 18:41 | #33

    @Mark Huntemann #141: The visible Church started with two and will end with one.

    In the meantime, according to Thesis IX in C.F.W. Walther’s “The Evangelical Lutheran Church the True Visible Church of God on Earth” (trans. by Dr. Wm. Dallmann, Walther and the Church, Dau, Engelder, Dallmann, CPH, 1938, p. 121):

    “Thesis IX: Though according to the divine promises it is not possible for the one holy Christian Church ever to perish, it is yet possible, and at times it has really happened, that there did not exist a true VISIBLE Church in the absolute sense, in which through an uncorrupted public ministry the preaching of the pure Word of God and the administration of the unadulterated Sacraments held sway.”

  34. John Eberhart
    June 23rd, 2012 at 19:02 | #34

    @Rev. Paul T. McCain #144 The pastor was dissabled and the baptised were dying. I don’t know what his reason was for not contacting another pastor.

    As far as the BOC “Of Ecclesiastical Order” I’m sure he defends all the BOC.

  35. June 23rd, 2012 at 19:04 | #35

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”

    (John 1:1-5 ESV)”

    And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    (Matthew 16:18-19 ESV)

    Only the Lamb Of God will end the harvest!

  36. Carl Vehse
    June 23rd, 2012 at 19:30 | #36

    @Rev. Paul Rydecki #133 : “To summarize very briefly, “the entire Church” does not mean each and every Christian to use individually in any and every circumstance.”

    Who has argued for “any and every circumstance”?!? In the excerpts from C.F.W. Walther’s book, provided in #129, to summarize very briefly, the phrase, “case of necessity,” was emphasized six times.

  37. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 19:49 | #37

    Mr. Huntemann, who are you charging with error? What error are you charging? What Scriptural evidence are you citing for the charge of heresy? Please, be specific.

  38. June 23rd, 2012 at 19:50 | #38

    @Carl Vehse #148
    I must be following a different thread, because thus far, as far as I’ve seen, the point of discussion hasn’t been over cases of necessity.

  39. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 19:55 | #39

    John, you do *not* have the authority to Baptize unless it is a life & death situation. If your pastor is incapacitated, you do *not* Baptize. Your pastor needs to get another called and ordained pastor or get to the font himself.

    Yes, by way of Holy Baptism, you are a priest in the priesthood of all believers (the Church). However, you do *not* have the authority to preach, teach, administer the Sacraments, or exercise the Office of the Keys (publicly).

    You are to tell the Good News of Jesus Christ to the world around you. You can assure people God will forgive them for the sake of Jesus. You can forgive the sins of those who sin against you.

  40. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 19:55 | #40

    Mr. Huntemann, what is the relevance of your comment?

  41. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:09 | #41

    The Pastors who have chosen to Limit the Gospel in spite of the clear evidence presented by Rev. McCain and the reality of my Scripture quote with the entire context. You cannot rip Scripture apart against Scripture. You cannot annul the Visible Church to be as small as two. You cannot make Our Lord a Liar.the Scriptural evidence presented below is citing you for the charge of heresy. @Mark Huntemann #137

  42. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:17 | #42

    I subscribe unconditionally to the 1580 BOC.

    This defines the Lutheran Church.

    I follow the teachings of the 1580 BOC.

    This defines my worship practices.

    You are stripping the BOC and Christ of authority!

  43. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:18 | #43

    “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

    For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.””

    (Matthew 18:18-20 ESV)

  44. Rev. Josh Osbun
    June 23rd, 2012 at 20:22 | #44

    Mark Huntemann :
    You are stripping the BOC and Christ of authority!

    Really? How so?

  45. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:26 | #45

    Remember the word that I said to you:

    ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’

    If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.

    If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

    (John 15:20 ESV)

    IXOYC

  46. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 20:29 | #46

    @Mark Huntemann #5

    My dear brother Mr. Huntemann,

    This conversation started about the Office of the Keys?

    I have not ever claimed that I am robbing Christ of His authority. I am upholding His authority that He Himself gives to His pastors to do in His Name. This is why I, and the other pastors say, In the stead and by the command of My Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins, in the Name of the Father and of + the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

    Now, I have also asserted that the Office of the Keys is not given to the laity to publicly exercise. I have asserted that the laity can and should forgive one another when they sin against one another (directly). I have also asserted that the laity have not been given the authority to forgive 3rd party sinners either publicly or privately.

    Your Bible passages only support what I’ve been saying. Be careful listening to Rev. McCain. His philosophy is unclear at best.

    If you hold to and confess the BOC as you say, please examine AC V again and ask yourself, Is this article still valid if AC XIV is abolished and forsaken? This my brother is the topic of this article.

    The LCMS abolished AC XIV in 1989 when the Synod in Convention discarded Article XIV and replaced it with the “lay ministry.”

    Brother, please be cautious when you charge someone with false teaching unless you have absolute clear proof from the Holy Scriptures.

  47. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:32 | #47

    Please tell me then how do you interpret the text?

    “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
    For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.””
    (Matthew 18:18-20 ESV)

  48. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:35 | #48

    Let me be very clear on this I would never usurp the Pastoral Office except under VERY unusual circumstances.

    But having said that I do have the authority to forgive 3rd party sins.

  49. Pastor John Wurst
    June 23rd, 2012 at 20:41 | #49

    Mark Huntemann
    Let me be very clear on this I would never usurp the Pastoral Office except under VERY unusual circumstances.

    This statement right here Mark tells me that you do not confess the BOC of 1580. A layman would never usurp the OHM under any conditions. It’s not your to have until Christ calls you and puts you into the OHM.

    Mark Huntemann
    But having said that I do have the authority to forgive 3rd party sins.

    Show me your authority to do so.

    I will even help you with an example.

    Christian A calls Christian B fat, obese, ugly, and bald.

    Can Christian C (that’s you Mark) forgive the sins of Christian A?

    If you say yes, please, please, please give the Scriptural support for your answer. Rev. McCain never gave us his Scriptural evidence.
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  50. June 23rd, 2012 at 20:48 | #50

    I will answer your question. But first answer mine please.

    Please tell me then how do you interpret the text?
    “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
    For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.””
    (Matthew 18:18-20 ESV)

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