Save ULC – a new video, and a reminder to keep support coming in.

November 11th, 2011 Post by

Here is a new video from some former members of ULC about ULC.   Please take a look:

 

Confessionals, time to put your money where your mouth (and confession) is:

DONATE TO SUPPORT ULC

 






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  1. TK
    November 12th, 2011 at 14:43 | #1

    This video is interesting and truly pushes the worship/liturgical life of the chapel. Given this theology and emphasis, then who is to blame, the district for selling the property, the leadership that didn’t know what was going on, nor doing much attractional work, or God? This is a tough situation, my heart doesn’t necessarily go,out to the adults with kids, but to the unchurched students who have one less place to see Jesus.

  2. Deleted
    November 12th, 2011 at 15:52 | #2

    Post deleted by request of author.

  3. Old Time St. John’s
    November 12th, 2011 at 15:58 | #3

    Not sure what you mean by ‘attractional work’, but I tell you what–this video attracts me to this church. The evident reverence for Word and Sacrament, and the inclusion of everyone, including crying babies, and the many hymn numbers on the notice board, and the slow chanting of the Words of Institution are all elements that convey the Divine Service from God to us–with joy, solemn but not somber, salutary, quintessential. I wish that we worshipped like this in my church.

  4. TK
    November 12th, 2011 at 16:22 | #4

    By attractional I menu there’s a pretty slim band of people they are attracting. I went to school in St Paul in the early 80′s and visited there once and it was pretty sad, not many people, felt like a little club to me and my buddies, we ended up worshipping weekly at Bethel in St Paul, which also had fabulous liturgical worship. We were looking to connect with other Lutheran people and there couldn’t have been 30 people there. Maybe it grew some since then. That’s kind of ancient history now.

  5. LaVonne
    November 12th, 2011 at 17:55 | #5

    I’ve been to the chapel lots of times over the past several years. The place is packed. I’m told they even need to bring in extra chairs every Sunday now. When I am there I see lots of students. There are also kids and old people. The worship is liturgical and reverent, and maybe this does appeal to a slim band of people, but we call those people Lutherans.

    By the way, this congregation has lots of people who have converted to Lutheranism after coming there, so perhaps they attract a wider band of people than you think.

    There are plenty of other campus ministries doing the contemporary thing. Let’s be proud of this one for actually being Lutheran.

  6. TK
    November 12th, 2011 at 18:18 | #6

    How many people does packed mean? A thousand or more, 500…my observation is the calendar isn’t too ambitious, just saying that I wonder why the District saw fit to sell it. It can’t be for no reason. I’m sure there’s a broader band of people who can be a part of that ministry than just the Lutherans. Perhaps that limited scope had something to do with the sale.

  7. TK
    November 12th, 2011 at 18:28 | #7

    District sai it has to do with deferred maintenance and that they gave the congregation the chance to buy it.

  8. LaVonne
    November 12th, 2011 at 18:51 | #8

    @TK #7
    I know for a fact that the congregation was never given a chance to buy the chapel. According to Pastor Kind, the listing agent never even returned their phone calls. And how were they expected to raise money to buy a multi-million dollar property in 9 days? Be realistic.

    Moreover, according to the ULC website, the District had set up a fund for maintenance and improvements and then quit putting money into it years ago. Is that good stewardship? Had they exercised proper stewardship over their years of ownership, the building wouldn’t need the work it does now. Considering how little the District has done in terms of upkeep, it’s amazing the chapel is in as good of shape as it is.

  9. LaVonne
    November 12th, 2011 at 18:53 | #9

    @TK #6
    Packed means they can hardly fit anyone else in for a service. The District leaders don’t want Lutheran missions, and the fact that ULC is so successful is something they cannot stand. That’s the simple truth of the whole thing.

  10. TK
    November 12th, 2011 at 19:12 | #10

    Why would the district close down a vital mission when they have dozens of parishes in life support in your district?

  11. Old Time St. John’s
    November 12th, 2011 at 19:41 | #11

    TK :
    Why would the district close down a vital mission when they have dozens of parishes in life support in your district?

    Now there is an excellent question. Why indeed?
    Personally, I lean toward Pastor Jonathan Fisk’s explanation.

  12. November 12th, 2011 at 20:34 | #12

    Pastor Jonathan Fisk’s explanation?

    Is that something along the lines of district’s idea of appropriate missions being contemporary and American Protestant, not liturgical and Lutheran?

  13. Old Time St. John’s
    November 12th, 2011 at 21:19 | #13
  14. helen
    November 12th, 2011 at 21:35 | #14

    @Ted Crandall #12
    Is that something along the lines of district’s idea of appropriate missions being contemporary and American Protestant, not liturgical and Lutheran?

    That seems to be the popular idea at District level.
    Texas District has said it will not plant a confessional liturgical Lutheran mission.

  15. TK
    November 12th, 2011 at 21:54 | #15

    @ Helen is that a written policy, I can’t see it in the District Website?

  16. November 13th, 2011 at 04:54 | #16

    Good one, TK. I’ll be amazed if it is a written policy. Many things they are (duplicitous comes to mind), but they are not stupid when it comes to CYA.

    Thank you for the great link, Old Timer!

  17. II John
    November 13th, 2011 at 08:13 | #17

    TK, have you found a church that has taught you the meaning of 1 Corinthians 12:12-26?

  18. TK
    November 13th, 2011 at 09:30 | #18

    it’s interesting that the accusation is made and not backed up. If it’s more of an informal thing, then that certainly doesn’t make it right. If a person said it, then they should be held accountable for it. Also if the church was packed and things were great, then why didn’t the congregation make an effort to purchase the property. Even and interest only loan through LCEF would be able to suffice for at least 18 months until they got cooking. I understand it was a student based ministry, but it sure seems like they also have a good following of strong/steadfast Lutherans. Oh well…what a mess…hope you all find a great spot to worship, there’s some great churches around the U that are gorgeous and would lend themselves to your style of worship.

  19. Old Time St. John’s
    November 13th, 2011 at 10:17 | #19

    @TK #18
    The church was built with the donations of many throughout Minnesota and beyond, to provide a campus ministry for U of MN. It is common practice in the LCMS for congregations to own their own buildings. However, in the case of campus ministries, that’s not always how it works out, because there is a ‘mission’ aspect to those churches, because they often do not form actual congregations, and because students are generally not a demographic that is either geographically or economically stable. The intent of those donors and their trust of the district have been flouted by the district’s action, which raises some serious questions around integrity. Furthermore, any thoughtful reading of the intent of the district in this sale, and of the timeline, leads inexorably to the conclusion that the district has made no credible plans to use this capital for ministry AND has demonstrated no credible concern for the flourishing congregation that their action has so grievously wounded. Their reasons for the sale are unconvincing at best, and they have taken no publicly recorded action to disposition the funds from the sale.

    It is evil to kill God’s living church. To do so from within is the cruelest cut.

    The district should have granted the property to the congregation, when they were recognized as such. Or, they should have maintained the property on behalf of the congregation, as they were trusted to do by the churches and laity that purchased the facility. Barring that, they should have worked in good faith with the congregation to enable them to purchase the property, instead of keeping them out of the loop in an unholy rush under cover of secrecy. The appearance that the district wants this congregation to fail, whether accurate or not, creates a public scandal than endangers the reputation of the Gospel and of our church body.

    So now we have a CONGREGATION, where Word and Sacrament ministry are active, a vibrant campus ministry, a flourishing mission, that needs our sacrificial support. They shouldn’t need this, but they do. So we will be faithful and support them.

  20. II John
    November 13th, 2011 at 15:28 | #20

    TK :
    Oh well…what a mess…hope you all find a great spot to worship, there’s some great churches around the U that are gorgeous and would lend themselves to your style of worship.

    Yes, and the best choice seems to be the one the MNS district board of directors is taking away. But you know, go and be warm. (James 2:16)

  21. helen
    November 13th, 2011 at 15:44 | #21

    @TK #4
    We were looking to connect with other Lutheran people and there couldn’t have been 30 people there.

    IF “you and your buddies” had stayed, and each one brought another one, how many would there have been?

  22. helen
    November 13th, 2011 at 15:53 | #22

    @TK #15
    Use your head! If that were written on the District web site, even more congregations would be reducing/eliminating their contributions to District.
    [Buying the rope meant to strangle you is nobody's idea of intelligence.]

    I was quoting a confessional Pastor, who asked because he was looking for a church that his members could transfer to, being moved by their business. That is backed up by information about the “plants” District has made, very few and all “CoWo”.

    I’d be delighted if you could show me anything different!

  23. helen
    November 13th, 2011 at 16:05 | #23

    @TK #18
    Even and interest only loan through LCEF would be able to suffice for at least 18 months until they got cooking.

    I’m sorry I have to ask. Are you just being cute?
    Or are you really that ignorant?

    The LCEF does what the District wants.
    The liberal DP/BOD wants ULC dead or they wouldn’t have sold the property.

    They’ve got a nice office out in Burnsville to sell, if this were about money.

  24. TK
    November 13th, 2011 at 19:34 | #24

    No being realistic and for you to be offensive is either mean or misguided. Do the math a loan at 4% interest only should be something that a congregation that is packed should be able to handle. And my point is that me and my friends wanted nothing to do with that ministry it was like a club and nobody spoke to us, and there was no ore than 35 people there.

  25. helen
    November 13th, 2011 at 20:17 | #25

    @TK #24

    Sorry for the tone! I can’t expect you to know where I was coming from.
    Perhaps the interest on a loan could be managed, IF ULC could get a loan [could have gotten, more realistically]. And if the real estate agent had been willing to talk to them!

    My point, in more detail, is that confessional congregations have negotiated with LCEF, only to have their arrangements vetoed by their district.
    All things considered, why do you think ULC would be treated differently?

    I don’t know what ULC was like “in the 80′s” or who was in charge. Obviously the student attendance has turned over many times since then. I don’t think you can judge the present organization by what was/was not happening 30 years ago.

    I’m glad you found a Lutheran church then.

  26. John Rixe
    November 14th, 2011 at 00:45 | #26

    Please see http://ulcmn.org/About/History.html for a brief history.

  27. Matthew Mills
    November 14th, 2011 at 13:24 | #27

    @TK #24
    I was at ULC ’81-’85, and it remains my example of what a faithful Lutheran Church should be. You visited during the same period, and didn’t like it.

    Was it really the size of the congregation? How many gathered in Jesus name does it take for our Lord to be present granting forgiveness, life and salvation? If there were 35 at ULC, you probably visited in ’83-ish. You seem to be saying 35 is not not enough. Today, there’s probably between 100 and 200, is that still not enough? That takes out a fairly big slice of LC-MS congregations btw, and begs the question: how many does it take? The Good Shepherd is willing to leave the 99 in the wilderness to seek and save the one wandering sheep, what kind of numbers does it take for you and the MNS Dist? If there are only 100 sheep available, do you feel compelled to attract goats and wolves to get the numbers up? Is it really about numbers?

    Was it a tight little group in ’83? Yes it was, but it certainly wasn’t an exclusive or closed group, and if you got out the door of ULC w/out being spoken to, you must have hit our door at a run, because in the early 80′s it was pretty easy to recognize “visitors.” Anyone who lingered for even a few minutes would have been offered coffee (and generally cookies) and invited to the “sampler” Bible Study. That’s how we rolled under Pastor Pless.

    Here’s what I suspect. You and your friends visited a Campus Church, and when you saw faithful, traditional Lutheran worship, it turned you off. There could have been 5 members present or 5,000, your reaction would have been the same. We weren’t what you were looking for, and so you didn’t give us much of a chance. So be honest about it, if you don’t like traditional liturgical Lutheran worship, then say so. The real issues dividing us are: what is worship for? and who is worship for? You, and the MNS district, oppose ULC because you answer those questions differently than Pastors Kind, Pless, Walther, Luther, Augustine and Paul. Man-up and admit it.

    Pax Christi+,
    Matt Mills

  28. John Rixe
    November 14th, 2011 at 14:52 | #28

    @Matthew Mills #27

    Matthew

    Did you read Comment 4 carefully?  How do you arrive at your suspicions?  You generally have good ideas but you come on a little strong.  

  29. Matthew Mills
    November 14th, 2011 at 15:19 | #29

    @John Rixe #28

    Perhaps I do come on strong, but unless and until we put our fingers on the real issues, we are just wasting time. I believe that the issues here are clearly: what is worship for? and who is worship for? Those are certainly the issues motivating the MNS in their attempt to drive bulldozers through the ULC, if it is not why TK and his friends left ULC 30 years ago w/o talking to Pastor Pless, or me, then I am sorry.

    My suspicions that we are dealing w/ the same issues come from the phrase in TK’s #6: “I’m sure there’s a broader band of people who can be a part of that ministry than just the Lutherans. Perhaps that limited scope had something to do with the sale,” and, the numerical fixation in all TK’s posts. We, as Lutherans, just don’t think in those terms. We don’t see the Divine Service as primarily “outreach,” and we are “process” rather than “results” focused. The ULC in the early ’80′s reflected that focus. We were small, but growing as the wandering sheep were lovingly brought back into the fold. We were tight, but not insular or closed.

  30. Old Time St. John’s
    November 14th, 2011 at 18:35 | #30

    (Aside: Norm, could you please do me a favor and erase post 2 on this thread? I was editing it and somehow it double posted. Post 3 is the one that says what I wanted to say. Thank you.)

  31. TK
    November 16th, 2011 at 17:04 | #31

    @ Matthew…nope you’re wrong, contemporary worship in 1983 was LW…but thank you for making me grateful I left.

  32. helen
    November 26th, 2011 at 10:12 | #32

    @TK #31
    …but thank you for making me grateful I left.

    If you were there before Pastor Pless, TK, I can’t speak to it, but if you walked away from the opportunity to hear him, I’m sorry for you. I have heard him, on occasion, and appreciated the encounter.

    I can’t tell from your comments if you stayed for a worship service or just walked in and walked out because the crowd wasn’t big enough for you.
    (I suppose a teacher who could only keep 12 disciples wasn’t very impressive either.)

    Numbers are the wrong yardstick, as the Bible points out repeatedly.

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