One could pick something outrageous from any paragraph in that AP story but this really made me wonder:

“…Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries, a nonprofit that credentials openly gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people for ministry.”

I have to ask what kind of credentials those might possibly be. It boggles the mind.

Interesting that they choose this day when their Old Testament lesson is Genesis 18:20-32.

Rev. James Kusko :Interesting that they choose this day when their Old Testament lesson is Genesis 18:20-32.

Wow!

Johannes (speechless, for once)

“Rohrer, who is transgender and a lesbian, was ordained by four congregations in San Francisco in 2006….”

/scratches head

Hmm…

/more head scratching

I need a “plumbing” diagram I think. On second thought… not a good idea.

As a former member of an Error-Laden-Church-Apostate congregation I can give you several reasons why members aren’t leaving, and these are reasons given to me by those who stayed after I left:

1) I have more important things to worry about…
2) This decision does not affect us here at (blank) church, we are still the same people…
3) Jesus reached out to those who were at the fringes of society…
4) Homosexuality IS NOT a sin, my conscience tells me so…
5) The Bible was written so long ago, and we know so much more now…
6) That just doesn’t fit with my idea of Jesus…
7) We should focus on helping the poor and not on this…
The word ‘homosexual’ does not exist in the ancient texts…
9) We allow remarriage in the church, and that is a sin also (the pastor used that one)

and my personal favorite

10) We’ve been here for so long and really don’t want to go look for another church…

@Joe Sarnowski #5
stupid stupid emoticon! >:(

“It’s going to be an extremely glorious and festive ceremony because it’s the culmination of decades of work to welcome LGBT people into the ELCA,”

“Decades of work” If one were to go back two 1990 and tell your ELCA friend that there are people in the church working (dare I say scheming) to bring this about, you would have been dismissed as alarmist.

I think a large reason that lay people put up with so much of this, is that what ties them to the church is not belief but the personal relationships which they have with other members. We should use such fellowship for good as satan uses it for evil.

Notice the dismissiveness of the “gay demons” line. I suspect that she not only doesn’t believe in gay demons, she doesn’t believe in any demons, nor angels or anything else that atheists laugh at. If one doesn’t believe in anything, one can still use the institution for therapeutic purposes, like societal transformation, running interference for creeping Islamitization, creating a socialist state, destroying the patriarchy, and just feeling good old self righteous and smug.

Just a small comment: can you believe that University Lutheran in Berkeley was founded by the sainted Donald Defner? Poor old Saint Donald. Perhaps we should make him the patron saint of apostates.

George
(who once lived 2 blocks away from the building, built by the LWML…)

And yet, despite all this, in our convention we just had we aren’t severing our working relationship w ECLA in various forms like, charities, and many others. So there are scenarios where one of our LCMS folks would be working in a joint activity with these chaps.

That bothers me.

I was also bothered by the precise wording of the resolution condemning this stuff in that it included the phrase “genital” thereby creating a very narrow condemnation. There is a lot of “activity” that ought to be condemned before it reaches that level.

@George #8
Sigh! I have fond memories of Prof. Defner. He once made my day by quoting me in print. I couldn’t get the smile off my face.

“…I realize there are still believing Christians in the denomination but for the life of me I cannot figure out why they stay…”

I agree, but it’s not always as simple as sounds. My brother is a member of an ELCA congregation in the Mid-South that does not appreciate the decision made at last year’s convention in the Twin Cities. They have made their feelings known to their pastor which is apparently where things got shut down. We need to be more accepting, etc., etc., he said.

So he’s struggling over the issue and, if they cannot resolve it properly, is considering joining one of the still-confessional Presbyterian churches in his area (there are plenty of PCA, since they pretty much originated in the South). There are no LCMS congregations in the area any more – there was one back in the early 70′s when he first moved there, but the pastor abruptly quit and when to work in private industry from unexplained reasons and that’s when he joined this congregation, which must have been LCA or ALC before the 1980′s merger.

How would you advise him to proceed? Quit everything and join some kind of virtual on-line fellowship?

@ George in Wheaton #10

Your brother can work with like-minded parishioners to plant a church.

@Pastor Phil Spomer #7
“Decades of work” If one were to go back two 1990 and tell your ELCA friend that there are people in the church working (dare I say scheming) to bring this about, you would have been dismissed as alarmist.

Perhaps, if they had no contact with internet or newspapers.
The running discussion on my first Lutheran “list” back in 1995, concerned a couple of G/L ministers in the SF area who were suspended by the synod for breaking their promise to remain celibate. One explained that the suspension was a formality; they were still welcome at local pastors’ meetings. It wasn’t a new idea in 1995.
This was reported in the newspapers at the time.

We in lcms have more than a few ‘disconnected from the world’ members, too.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/beliefbeat/2010/07/presbyterian-assembly-approves-gay-clergy-not-gay-marriage.html

@Joe Sarnowski #5
Point number 4 is the best. What more do we need to sever ties with the ELCA? Certainly from the convention we have District Presidents that think we should continue to work with the ELCA; externals is what they call it. I say it’s time to stop all dialogues and sever all ties.

The first open push I saw for the homosexal lifesyle in ELCA was an interview with Dr. Walter F. Taylor, Jr in the July 1993 issue of “The Lutheran”. I wrote a letter to the Editor about the interview, but the letter was never answered or published in the magazine. You could feel the push. I talked to my pastor, he said nothing would come of the push for openly homosexal pastors in the ELCA Church. Frogs in slow heating up boiling water.

@George in Wheaton #11
George,
I would suggest that he go to http://www.lcms.org and find the closest congregation to him. It would be better to travel some distance than attend a church whose doctrine and practice throw away many of the things of the Lutheran Church.

@Joe Sarnowski #5
I think this point:
4) Homosexuality IS NOT a sin, my conscience tells me so…

is the hardest to deal with. I have had several family members and friends come out of the closet so to speak. One was a LCMS teacher and another a LCMS pastor. Many of these people no longer claim to be Christian. I think one of the biggest scandals in the LCMS is its inability to deal with this issue. Now I do not advocate saying it is not a sin and these people are not sinning. I believe the ELCA, in its attempt to deal with this issue, has strayed away from biblical teaching. But, this issue is much deeper and more complicated than being cut and dry. I work to talk Jesus with these people, but it is tough. Many feel betrayed by the church they were raised in. I pray that the LCMS will work to deal with this issue.

Good news from the local front. Hosanna Lutheran Church, which is a huge mega church voted by 96% to pull out of the ELCA
http://www.hosannalc.org/index.html

What really concerns me in all of this, apart from the ELCA continuing its drift away from any notion of what it is to be ‘Lutheran,’ is the possibility of those fed up leaving for the LCMS, or other more confessional Lutheran church body.

The reason this concerns me is how many of these people have been members since the ELCA ordained female clergy and not had a problem with it…. or at least not enough of a problem to do anything about it. These ‘conservatives’ leaving the ELCA could become the new ‘liberals’ in the LCMS.

This didnt happen overnight. You cant accept female clergy w/o coming to the logical conclusion of also accepting actively homosexual clergy.

I remember seeing a very passionate apology (ie. defense) for Scriptural truth on the issue of allowing actively homosexual clergy coming from….and ELCA clergy woman. That people are only know started to discuss leaving concerns me.

Opinions like that are becoming more common even in LCMS congregations. “Homosexuality is now okay because a family member is now gay…” (or maybe it was that ‘reality’ show about the dating gay teenagers on MTV) “It’s not the church’s or pastor’s concern who is shacking up…” “We’re not spreading gossip; we’re discussing each other’s concerns about the church…” etc.

Perhaps the first _open_ challenge in the ELCA was in 1993. At that time I didn’t know about the ELCA/LCMS etc. (I guess that makes me young?).

I did get an education in history, though, living in Berkeley — I even took Greek at Pacific Lutheran from the “Seminex Professor of Exegetical Theology,” Robert Smith (may he rest in peace). If you want to see how far back this all goes, just take a look at http://www.ulcberkeley.org

Especially under “Pastor Jeff”s page. He openly notes that he was ordained in 1990 “extra ordinem” because he was a non-celibate gay man. Over 1000 people attended his ordination, including 70 clergy. Was that not an open challenge?

Anyway, I chuckle (to myself) and cry (also to myself) anytime someone tells me that their ELCA church isn’t so bad… because it’s only 10-20 years before every ELCA church has had a woman pastor and a “celebration of homosexuality” is made. Just think of how far they’ve come in the last 20 years!

George

@George in Wheaton #11

There are no LCMS congregations in the area any more – there was one back in the early 70?s when he first moved there, but the pastor abruptly quit and when to work in private industry from unexplained reasons and that’s when he joined this congregation, which must have been LCA or ALC before the 1980?s merger.

If I am not being to forward, where in the mid-south does your brother live?

I am wondering how much effort was taken to make sure these clergy were really in a “committed relationship” if that is even possible to determine. Not that that makes it right but that is the so called “rule” the ELCA adopted. Not?

In a Scriptural & Confessional Study on the Ordination of Women, the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations (AFLC) begins with the following as their first paragraph:

“The Word of God is our authority for faith and life. We cannot look to culture, opinions, personal experience, or custom as sources of authority. ‘My neighbor and I – in short, all men – may err and deceive, but God’s Word cannot err’ (Luther’s Large Catechism). See Psalm 119:105, Matthew 28:20, John 8:31, 17:17, Galatians 1:8, Ephesians 2:20, II Timothy 3:14-17.”

If the ELCA were truly Lutheran and not apostate, their sexuality study document “Gift and Trust” would have begun with a statement similar the the above quote from an AFLC statement. The fact that the Bible was barely referred to, and certainly not treated as the sole source of their theology (Sola Scriptura) shows how non-Lutheran and un-Christian the ELCA has drifted.

“I realize there are still believing Christians in the denomination…” Thank you, Pastor Rossow. It is the organization of the ELCA that is apostate, not all her members. Where the Holy Word is being proclaimed, God’s Word will still produce and sustain Christians IN SPITE OF the teachings of that church body. “The ones I have talked to have admitted that neither they nor there pastors are doing anything to protest the decisions of the ELCA General Assembly. That makes no sense to me.”

In chapter 28 of their book “What’s Going on Among the Lutherans? A Comparison of Beliefs” , Patsy A. Leppien and J. Kincaid Smith quote Pieper, “You may say: ‘I want to remain in the heterodox church in order to accomplish good in it, namely, to prevent it from losing the truth altogether.’ If you happen to be in a heterodox church, then first of all, bear witness to the truth clearly and definately. If they listen to you, good. Under certain circumstances, you can wait a little, to see whether the truth is accepted. But as soon as it is clear that they will not accept the truth, you must separate yourself from that group which holds to error. If you, nevertheless, remain in it, then you are no longer reinforcing the truth, but rather the error. It is blindness if you suppose that you are still a witness-bearer for the truth, and an associate of false teachers. As Luther says: You ‘cannot remain in the stall with others whyo propagate false doctrine or are attached to it or always speak good words to the devil and his crowd.’ (XVII,1477)” (p. 378, Leppien & Smith, Northwestern Publishing House, Milwaukee, 1992)

“Jeff Johnson, another one of the pastors who will be added to the roster, said the ELCA’s position for years of not accepting the choice of some congregations to ordain gay clergy was painful and disappointing.” So was the ELCA’s fall into apostacy “painful and disappointing.” May we pray for those still connected to the ELCA without a faithful shepherd, and may other Lutherans around the world learn from this tragic lesson: Casting aside Sola Scriptura in order to conform to the patterns of this world equals apostasy and nothing less. May God have mercy on those presently trapped in the ELCA.

ELCA website – What We Believe – Dig Deeper- God’s Word
“At the same time, we also find in the Bible human emotion, testimony, opinion, cultural limitation and bias. ELCA Lutherans recognize that human testimony and writing are related to and often limited by culture, customs and world view… Because Biblical writers, editors and compilers were limited by their times and world views, even as we are, the Bible contains material wedded to those times and places. It also means that writers sometimes provide differing and even contradictory views of God’s word, ways and will.”

As an ELCA member, you hold Scripture has errors, limits, even contradicts what God really meant to say, you pick and choose. So murdering unborn babies and homosexual relations can be ok.

Are there Christians in the ELCA? YES! Are they compelled by Scripture to leave false doctrine? YES! But since they hold such a low view of Scripture, they stay because: friends, location, retirement plans, social life, traditions of man, and their views are more important.

Lucius @9,
It bothers me too.
Partnering with ELCA in LWR lends our good name to their misbegotten denomination.
It would not tarnish us as much to partner with Jewish World Service.
But best to go it alone at this point.

My sister (an ELCA member) decided to stay because their pastor said that as long as he is there, there will not be a gay pastor. What happens when he leaves or dies? What I feel is even a greater sin than endorsing gay pastors is the fact that the ELCA thinks that they are either co-equal with God or greater than God and that at anytime there is a conflict between what they would like to do and what the Bible allows, they simply call a convention, stack it with like minded folk and vote God’s law out of existence!

One wonders why there isn’t an EXODUS from ELCgay churches.
An LCMS pastor relayed to me a technique a disgruntled elderly ELCA member used to stay in the denomination: “I just close my eyes and pretend it’s 1955″

If this represents “the culmination of decades of work” I wonder what’s next? What projects are beginning today in the ELCA that will come to fruition in the 2030′s? Goddess worship? the ordination of pets? Perhaps we should be asking any slowly boiling ELCA frogs we know: how about ________ (fill in the blank, goddess worship, openly homosexual pastors in committed polygamous relationships …) will you leave when your church approves _________? (fill in the blank) Have them draw their own line today, and be there to gently remind them when the ELCA celebrates crossing it in a few decades.
Pax Christi+,
-Matt Mills

@Matthew Mills #29

“Goddess worship?”

Done. In 2010, not 2030.

http://www.herchurch.org/

Yikes! I hope I’m still good on the ordination of pets.
The big point was to get ELCA folks to draw their own line, and to be there as friends to remind them when ELCA crosses it. As an Air Force flight instructor I used to tell my students that they had to make their “ejection decision” on the ground. They had to decide in the pre-flight briefing that if x, y or z happened while we were flying, they would “return the jet to the taxpayers” and get us out. Same idea, do your thinking now while your cranium is clear and un-distracted, set your decision in stone: “if x then y” period.
The handful of ELCA folks we picked up at my excellent local LC-MS congregation following this latest vote had basically done that, and for them actively homosexual clergy was the trip wire.
Pax Christi+,
-Matt Mills

Not ElCA, but it gets crazier and crazier. Dogs at communion. huh?
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/838717–can-a-dog-receive-communion

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/840211–priest-apologizes-for-dog-wafer-gaffe?bn=1

@wrl #30
Heaven help us.

apostate is as apostate does. ELCA is no longer Christian, period, let alone Lutheran. So if one leaves the ELCA do they come over to the LCMS which is fast becoming an american evangelical church? Maybe they can come work for one of our RSOs, they seem to welcome the ELCA.

“The handful of ELCA folks we picked up at my excellent local LC-MS congregation following this latest vote had basically done that, and for them actively homosexual clergy was the trip wire.”

And, for this handful, the last 30+ years of ELCA heresy didn’t trigger anything for them?!?

For that pre-flight “if x then y”, one “x” should have been the wings falling off on take-off.

@mames #34

There are still Lutheran Christians in ELCA.

MO needs to be both firm and welcoming.

Let’s avoid false dilemmas.

Check out 2001 Convention Resolution 3-21A. I quote in part: “Resolved. That the 2001 Synodical conventin affirm the late President Alvin L. Barry’s judgment that “we cannot consider them [the ELCA] to be an orthodox Lutheran church body…”

Anyone who was at that convention remembers the one-hour uproar that ensued. Since then, Dr. Barry’s judgment has been affirmed, verfiied, and proven correct beyond the shadow of a doubt, as the ELCA has slid further downhill, and has barely faint vestiges of orthodoxy.

But, I urge all the contributors here to read the 2001 Convention proceedings account, page142–especially the fine print after “Action”. Very instructive and informative. Anyone who thinks the “Proceedings” is/are boring and tedious has another think coming. I’ve read this particular acocunt several times and it’s still entertaining, to say the least. And I’m glad I was there.

Johannes

I don’t think we should have anything to do with the ELCA. Our association with them just makes us look as bad as they are. Not only that continued contact with them cannot help but further corrupt our own church body. As Paul writes:

1Co 15:33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”

Loren Zell :I don’t think we should have anything to do with the ELCA. Our association with them just makes us look as bad as they are. Not only that continued contact with them cannot help but further corrupt our own church body. As Paul writes:
1Co 15:33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”

And, then, a good lesson on how we shall witness to them today, given the Apostle Paul’s trip up Mars Hill to bring truth to that association, would be very helpful.

The ELCA church wide assembly did not open the doors to homosexual clergy. What they did was to give the decision to individual synods and bishops whether or not to allow ordaining of homosexuals in committed monogamous same-sex relationships.

As of today, I do not know of any bishop of the ELCA that has decided to allow ordaining homosexuals.

The LCMS-ELCA partnership in campus ministry is also untenable.
See http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2010/04/elca-campus-pastor-rip.html
an obituary of the first woman ELCA minister at Valparaiso.
Pastors on this blog, what say you?

@mbw #36

> MO needs to be both firm and welcoming

Just to be clear, I meant ‘welcoming to individuals’

@Alicia C Simpson #40
Alicia,
Maybe this logic wrong based on your post, but follow this. A town council decides to make it lawful to murder people in the streets. The town council did not open the doors to murder in the streets. What they did is give the decision to mobs and individuals whether or not to actually go and murder people in the streets. Wrong is wrong and I am leaving town s fast as I can and not coming back.

I was also screaming at the screen regarding the committed relationships. What a load of garbage!! With half or more of all Christian marriages ending up in divorce, how in the world does the ELCA think a committed relationship that is not blessed by God is going to last? The pastors in the LCMS must become bold and blunt in preaching to the parishoners that homosexuality is condemned by God and will not be sanctioned or condoned but will rather be taught as a sin that must be repented of and no longer engaged in. The argument that it is okay to be gay as long as you don’t act upon it is just lame. We better get a handle on this and soon before our kids and grandkids lose all sensitivity to sexual sins if they haven’t already. As to accepting the sin because one’s child has declared themselves gay is no more right than condoning the sin if that same child had committed murder or rape. The fact that they are a beloved member of the family does not make the sin okay. And as far as saying homosexuality is not any worse sin that gossip or coveting or the like, we have to get real here and see the damage that all sexual sin can do because all sexual sin involves another person which brings them into sin. A person can lie alone, or steal alone, or murder alone or covet alone, etc, but sexual sins always involve another human being whether consenting or not. Oa href=”#comment-93701″>@Bob E #23

May God grant us in the LCMS the grace to be true to Holy Scripture and confess it no matter what society is saying to us . . . “A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.” – Everlasting Man, 1925 G.K. Chesterton

@Rose #41
Rose,

I would find the use of someone’s death distasteful in the argument for breaking all ties with the ELCA, even though I believe that all ties with the ELCA should be broken.

Rose,

I am not saying that is your position.

Rev. Sterle,
As a pew-person, I was unaware of the collaboration between LCMS and ELCA in Campus Ministry until I read this sad obituary. Hence my link to it. No offense intended.
I would have preferred to quote the Lutheran Witness.
My question is: Why is LCMS teaming with ELCA pastors who ” extended hospitality and care to many in the university community, including international students, women and Alliance, a community of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students” ? (according to LCMS Pastor Cunningham) Where is the LCMS care/warning to parents who send their children to such Lutheran Campus Ministries? Better a millstone…..

Alicia C Simpson :The ELCA church wide assembly did not open the doors to homosexual clergy. What they did was to give the decision to individual synods and bishops whether or not to allow ordaining of homosexuals in committed monogamous same-sex relationships.
As of today, I do not know of any bishop of the ELCA that has decided to allow ordaining homosexuals.

What the ELCA church wide assembly did wasfar beyond the issues of homosexuality and ordination. They voted on a document devoid of Biblical theology, in an attempt to replace Sola Scriptura with Sola Cultura as their normative source of “theology.” Because of this, they are no longer Lutheran. They sought to over-ride the Word of God with a vote at their convention. God will not be mocked.

@lutheranlady #44
Yes Homosexuality is a sin. But preaching the Law alone will not fix it. The idea that you can fix people with the Law is very non-Lutheran theology, yet, in this particular issue it is the method most used.

Firstly, you are right that a relationship not sanctioned by God will not last. When I experimented with homosexuality in early college years I found very quickly that even though homosexuality felt natural to me, ALL homosexual relationships involve a jealousy that is not present in heterosexual marriage. In any homosexual relationship you fall in love not only with the person but with something you see in them related to their masculinity which you lack in your self. This causes both a jealousy toward them and also a fear that they will leave and take away that aspect of masculinity you desire for yourself. God created male and female to fit together physically and emotionally in a one flesh union. Male/male or female/female relationships can not and will not do that. Falling outside of God’s ordaining, they always cause harm.

That being said, however, Lutheran theology requires that a person repent and DESIRE to change his or her life. That is as far as the Law can go. Forgiveness precedes the change itself, including the ability to stop behavior. The Gospel must be offered at repentance, not withheld until the behavior ends.

Further, we have done a very good job of preaching the Law. I seriously doubt there is a single person in the gay life today who has any misunderstanding of how the conservative churches view their behavior. I have met literally hundreds of people who have left the gay lifestyle. I also have a handful of friends in the gay lifestyle. I have yet to meet one single homosexual who did not know clearly that the conservative Church says homosexuality is wrong. We have preached the Law. We must continue to preach the Law. but the Law changes absolutely NO ONE.

You said, “The argument that it is okay to be gay as long as you don’t act upon it is just lame.” OK, then what is a teen who is attracted to other people of his or her own gender supposed to do? They can control behavior and not act on it. But you seem to be saying they must make their feelings and temptations go away too. How do they do that? What suggestions will you give them? As humans we can refuse to give in to temptation (though as sinners we will often fail) But to get rid of temptation – only God can do that. How are these kids to act the part of God? Since apotheosis is not possible, the most we can ever ask is that people not act on temptation.

No, it is neither righteous nor loving to accept sinful behavior, whether in a family member or a friend. However, the solution is to add the Gospel while continuing to preach the Law. In this thread alone there are 49 posts about how apostate the ELCA has become yet, unless I missed something, I have not seen a single post that mentions the real problem – in refusing to preach the Law, the ELCA has also abandoned the Gospel. For the forgiveness of sins only makes sense if sin is first preached. It is not that they have preached Gospel and failed to preached Law. They have failed to proclaim Gospel itself.

Yet in our own church, youth who face this temptation hear a lot of Gospel in general but when the topic of homosexuality arises they hear only Law. These kids receive a clear message that all other sins are forgiven but this one is not.

In reality, most LCMS pastors are compassionate and forgiving if someone will actually go to them and confess this sin. But too many of these kids are afraid to go to the pastor because all they heard from him on the subject before was Law. In their eyes, these kids believe they have the choice then of being in a Lutheran denomination which will not forgive them (LCMS) or one which will not condemn them (ELCA). They do not see anyone offering the true Gospel that Christ became sin for us and died in our place so that all repentant sinners, homosexual included, are forgiven for His sake and saved through faith.

Sorry to go on so long – I wasn’t going to comment on this thread since I have said all this before. But when I see someone promoting only Law as the solution to the problem, I really have to speak out and say – that doesn’t work – only the Law and Gospel together hold the real solution.

Is it really that much of a burden to include a sentence or two of Gospel when speaking the Law on this subject?

@Rose #48
Rose,

Valpo ceased being Lutheran many years ago in every way except in its name. With the ever increasing number of non church worker related course being offered at our own Universities, I have the same concern about them. They give out more and better scholarships to those not in the church worker programs. I know because two of my chidlren attended one of the Concordias. I warn children as much as a pastor is able. Please note that many of the things that effect Valpo also effect our Concordias! I know of at least four where there is open communion practices in the campus chapel and such things. I am confident that our campuses also have their share of homosexuals attending classes. Whether they are open or not I would not know. I know that our seminaries while they do a great job, must not convince some people because I had the unfortunate obligation as a circuit counselor to preach in a congregation whose pastor admitted he was a homosexual and had been since early in his college days. This is not a condemnation of what the seminaries are doing but I am simply pointing out a fact of how well they are able to disguise themselves as being non homosexual.

Other than that what I have always done is point out that God still considers it a sin for which repentance must come. Same as with adultery, and other types of sexual sins.

IF this has not answered your question to me, then hit me again and I will try again.

@Rev. Roger Sterle #51

“I know that our seminaries while they do a great job, must not convince some people because I had the unfortunate obligation as a circuit counselor to preach in a congregation whose pastor admitted he was a homosexual and had been since early in his college days.”

Do you mean he had told the congregation, and then quit?

@Joe Sarnowski #5

There is another, less “sinister” reason: some of them consider their church “home” and would prefer to “fight” for their homes rather than just abandon them. I don’t know if its the right decision or not, but it certainly is motivated by the right reason (in my opinion).

I think we have to keep joint-ministry and joint mercy work separate.

During my freshman year in college the University Lutheran Chapel at the Univ. of Minnesota, Minneapolis was a “joint ministry” of the LC-MS, ALC, LCA and AELC (OK, I’m getting old.) The
LC-MS ended this joint ministry my sophomore year, and the conventional wisdom was that this action would end Lutheran campus ministry at the U of M because the congregation was too small to support two centers. What happened though was that, once both groups were free to stop walking on egg shells and be themselves, both independent centers ended up larger than the joint one had been. I haven’t kept up w/ the ELCA folk, but the LC-MS Chapel on the U of M campus (www.ulcmn.org) is still a thriving Confessional powerhouse. In my experience joint ministry per se impairs the “witness” of both the LC-MS and ELCA. There’s no “upside” to doing that.

I can support our new President in his call for joint efforts w/ ELCA in charity work though, because If I or my family had malaria in Africa, there’s a good chance that I’d be more interested in reducing administrative costs and efficiently getting medical care to folks like me. If we pay twice as many administrators to do the same work, it means less money for meds and doctors, and more sick and dead people.

Pax Christi+,
-Matt Mills

What are your thoughts on Thrivent? Should we comingle our funds w/ELCA? Does ELCA have a separate LCEF-type foundation for planting churches or do they use Thrivent funds?

Rose,
I might be the wrong person to ask on that. I buy insurance to protect my family in case I die before retirement, not as a theological statement. I do the same thing w/ plumbers, mechanics, roofers etc., I’m looking for vocational competence, not a yellow-pages advert w/ a fish, or Luther Rose next to the phone number.
It might not apply, but I seem to remember the LCEF board elections bucking the general pro-Harrison convention trend.
Sorry for my Thrivent knowledge gap,
-Matt Mills

The technique in comment #28 of closing one’s eyes is dangerous. Laity in all denominations need to keep their eyes wide open, their ears open, and guided by sound theology and doctrine, call unrepentant sinners to repentance, or else leave.
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” 2 Cor 6:14.

@Pumpf #53
Where in God’s Word does it say we need to stay in a church of false doctrine and fight? But, there are plenty of Romans 16:17 directions. Also read 2 John 1ff, Titus, 2 Cor. 6:1ff, 1 Timothy 1,2,6 …you are compelled to leave!

According to our Lord, the most dangerous thing on earth….is false doctrine!

REsponding to a few points: Thrivent, which used to be AAL and Lutheran Brotherhood. We accept life insurance these days, but when AAL was started (one of my ancestors had policy #1) it was a theological scandal. What, you mean you aren’t relying on God to take care of you? Interesting how “we’ve changed our minds” on this, right or wrongly.

Regarding whether disgruntled ELCA people should move into an LCMS church, I’d just say, what makes any LCMS person think that the judgmental attitude demonstrated by many LCMS people on the web, in blogs, in semi-official web sites, etc. is welcoming? Jesus spoke pretty harshly about judgementalism. This attitude that seems to say that any other Christians aren’t quite a pure as those in the LCMS seems to be heresy to me. I’ve seen much written on LCMS websites about the necessity for (LCMS) liturgy, (LCMS) hymns, etc. While I love liturgy and I love many (most?) of the old hymns, I would venture to say that insisting on them as part of pure worship and an necessary to be be truly LCMS, ie “truly Christian” is works righteousness.

No we are saved by grace. And we all sin, so we all need that grace. Grace freely given to those who believe. Believe in Jesus, not believe in all the specific words of the Bible. I’m not in any way implying that I’m not a Bible believer, but rather, that I’d still be saved if I had never even read the Bible. Or if I had only a simplistic knowledge of the Bible stories.

Look at the other sins listed in the same paragraphs with the sexual sin references and see if there is anybody you know who escapes from committing at least one of these sins. Yes, we all need grace and we need to look at other Christians as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Lois,
Yes, we try to escape from sin. When we fail, we repent of sin.
But we don’t practice sin.
We don’t affirm lifelong, committed relationships with/in sin.

Rose :
Lois,
Yes, we try to escape from sin. When we fail, we repent of sin.
But we don’t practice sin.
We don’t affirm lifelong, committed relationships with/in sin.

This hits on the head the problem I see in dealing with this issue. I honestly believe that we believe that sexual sins are worse than other sins, which is wrong. I am sure there are plenty of people in the church who commit one sin or another that they are unrepentant of whether they are aware of the sin or not. I am not excusing sexual sins. While what the ELCA is doing is scandalous, I am concerned that we as a synod are being equally scandalous by not doing enough for those who are homosexual. The issue is not as cut and dry as we would like it to be. I struggle with this issue because of the family members I have that are gay and the friends and colleagues who are gay. I have known some church workers who are gay and have since left the church. How do we minister to them? We address this issue like we would a man and woman who are living together. It is harder to say that to someone who is gay, because it also is a denial of who they are. I think this issue needs to be treated with far more Gospel than law. How can we tell them that Jesus does not love them for who they are. Yes I know He loves them, but to them that is a different story.

Old, old tired arguments, Lois. Life insurance and homosexual pastors are hardly the same issue. LCMS members do not think they are purer than others, but at least we know where the back door of our church is if it should ever become the unrepentant, heretical ELCA.@Lois #59

andrew :
@lutheranlady #44
Yes Homosexuality is a sin. But preaching the Law alone will not fix it. The idea that you can fix people with the Law is very non-Lutheran theology, yet, in this particular issue it is the method most used.
That being said, however, Lutheran theology requires that a person repent and DESIRE to change his or her life. That is as far as the Law can go. Forgiveness precedes the change itself, including the ability to stop behavior. The Gospel must be offered at repentance, not withheld until the behavior ends.

[snipped here]

Further, we have done a very good job of preaching the Law. I seriously doubt there is a single person in the gay life today who has any misunderstanding of how the conservative churches view their behavior. I have met literally hundreds of people who have left the gay lifestyle. I also have a handful of friends in the gay lifestyle. I have yet to meet one single homosexual who did not know clearly that the conservative Church says homosexuality is wrong. We have preached the Law. We must continue to preach the Law. but the Law changes absolutely NO ONE.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH. In my field/subculture, I have encountered many people from Christian backgrounds who are now away from the Faith because of not just “Law only”-application, but actual spiritual, emotional and physical abuse. Met a person who is now a Buddhist, and still resents and had flashbacks of the behavioral reprogramming the Calvinist parents forced the person to attend, amongst other things.

I’m not squicking over the 6th Commandment. That’s iron clad. Single guys in the ministry should wait until male/female marriage or practice chastity when called to do so. I’m squicking over how nonLutheran Christians assumed that if you change the behavior and force men and women to have a sexual response towards the opposite sex–Pavlov style, you will be no longer ‘gay’. I get disgusted over people getting abused and ostracized by communities and disowned by families.

I recommend reading some articles by Eve Tushnet, a celibate Catholic lesbian. She offers an alternative between pretending to be straight and embracing nonmarital sexuality: the gift of friendship as a discipline. Mind you, she bases things on her Catholic theology.

(I know I’m opening a can of worms. Don’t question my quia-ness or my Christian convictions. I’m sensitive. :/ )

@Andrew Strickland #61
Andrew, what do you want us to be doing for the homosexual?

The ones I know are “fine, thank you.” Don’t tell them there is anything wrong with what they do. They don’t intend to listen. And now that their ‘lutheran’ church approves, why should they?

@Helen #64
Helen,
That is the 20 billion dollar question. This is not an issue of some condone it, but we do not. This is a serious issue and is not being addressed sufficiently in the LCMS. Why don’t they listen? They do not listen because they are being rejected. I do not see rejecting people as the right answer. Not all are rejected in the LCMS, but the larger message that comes across is one of rejection and people seem to be ok with that. I know there is a huge danger here, how do you minister to people who have hardened hearts. Option A: Go down the road of the ELCA, Anglicans, or several other denominations and call it not a sin.
Option B: Push them away-we don’t need them.
Option C: Ignore it
Option D: Reach out to them with the Gospel with a healthy mixture of law. Far to often in our synod option b and c are used.

@Father Robert #58
My first reaction would be to get out. But I think (dangerous, eh) it is noteworthy that some people still consider their church families as “families” and want to change them. Like I said, I think I’d have to leave… but who is going to exert more “pressure” on the ELCA to change- me (LCMS pastor) or the members of the ELCA?

Obviously, they are not “there” because they agree with things… and are actively working to bring the ELCA back into conformity with God’s Word. Even as I type this, I realize the next question: where were they 20 years ago?

In case anyone thinks that the LCMS is indifferent or hostile to homosexuals, here is a document that was produced some time ago. I have not read it in a long time, but it bears looking at.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CIC/minhomfam.pdf

It may a good topic for a future thread.

Johannes

The days of “being in dialogue” with the apostate ELCA should now be OVER. We have, in our Lord’s love, been “in dialogue” with the ELCA since their diabolic inception in 1988. See how much “influence” the LCMS has had on the ELCA? When will we learn, and when will we admit that the “cry for more dialogue” is overwhelmingly coming from Seminexers in the LCMS who continue to “hope” we will one day be with the ELCA? The ELCA is not Evangelical, nor is she Lutheran. We confuse the “Lutheran” world by continuing to pretend the ELCA is either Evangelical or Lutheran. The days of dialogue should now be over, in our Lord’s love. Apostate is apostate. Lord, have mercy.

@Johannes #67
Johannes,

Thanks for posting that – I actually wound up advising that task force anonymously. A quote or two in there are mine and I noticed they used some of what I wrote in the text itself. I mention that because I have always been very happy with the way it turned out. But I have been disappointed in how little it has been utilized.

In the end, there was one big flaw in that document – it was intended to be used when a person comes to the pastor and says, “I am homosexual.” In the 13 years since it was released I have asked many pastors if they have read it. Probably about 70% say no. Usually the reason is that they have never had anyone come to them and confessed homosexuality.

Waiting for someone to come to us before dealing with homosexuality in a Law/Gospel manner is too late. By the time a person is open about their temptation they have almost always determined which way to go already, whether to practice celibacy or to look for a “partner.” At that point we are too often dealing with a person whose mind is made up and who may have a hardened heart. All we can do at that point is to offer the Word of God, point to the cross while remaining firm on our stance that homosexual behavior is wrong, and pray that God will wake them up to the sin.

We live in a real world and what we need to do is to learn to be pro-active. Homosexual temptation usually begins in the early teens, for some as early as 10. From that point until late teens/early twenties, the child is listening intensely to see what the church has to say about him or her. They listen to conversations in coffee hour between adults They overhear radio programs like “Issues Etc” that mom and dad are listening to in the car or at home. they play close attention to what the pastor says about it in sermons. Our real mission work is not in the gay community but within our own congregations to our youth.

If they hear homosexuality preached in the Law portion of the sermon and then not mentioned as specifically in the Gospel, they will receive the impression that the Gospel does not include them. If they hear the adults in church coffee hour talking about how awful homosexuality it without showing any compassion for those who struggle, they will wonder how Christ will respond to them if they fall into sin. How do you think they feel when the people around them are discussing breaking all ties with the ELCA over this issue when for decades we have overlooked the acceptance in the ELCA of pastors who negate of the Word of God or deny the resurrection? We say all sins are the same yet winked at false doctrine of all kinds while being shocked at this particular sin.

The point is that we have the mission field right inside our own churches and we need to be thinking that way. the question is not how do we reach out to those who are already in the gay lifestyle but how do we make sure that when our children overhear the Law on this issue they overhear Gospel as well?

Essentially it comes down to a few steps

1: being willing to talk about homosexuality – it needs to be included in the sermon now and then. it needs discussed in confirmation class. It needs to be brought up in youth bible studies. In each of these cases both Law and Gospel need to be addressed. The ELCA is useless to me because they deny my sin. I can receive acceptance from them but never true forgiveness and acceptance won’t take me to heaven. Keep the Law – but add a huge dose of Gospel.

2: being aware of when homosexuality is being discussed among members during coffee hour, etc and add the Gospel and compassion to the conversation.

3: connect the means of grace to homosexuality. What would be wrong with a pastor, for instance, saying something like this in a sermon, “Do you struggle with homosexual temptation, a desire for pornography, alcoholism, greed, or guilt for a secret sin? Are you afraid that your sin is too great for God to forgive? Communion is here for you. Christ gives you His very Body and Blood. He was not afraid to touch the lepers. His touch made them clean. He rejoices for you to touch his physical presence here at the Lord’s Table and to offer you His forgiveness.”

If we are going to answer God’s call for workers in the harvest, a harvest which, I pray, will include many repentant homosexuals, then our attitude needs to change. We are thinking in terms of acceptance vs rejection. That needs to stop. The ELCA refuses to call homosexuality a sin – this kind of acceptance sends the sinner to hell. The LCMS has tended to preach only Law and then wait for homosexual sinners to come and ask for forgiveness. That is rejection and it sends sinners to hell too. Instead we simply need to focus on real forgiveness by presenting Law and Gospel together – always – in every discussion of homosexuality – no exceptions – including internet discussions like this one.

MBW #36

“”There are still Lutheran Christians in ELCA.

MO needs to be both firm and welcoming.”"

I would hope complete catechisis was accomplished prior to them being allowed into membership. I doubt if any current member of an ELCA congregation understands what being Lutheran entails. They certainly need to understand that Scripture is infallible, without error and completely inspired by Gods the Holy Spirit. right now all members of ELCA congregations pick and choose what is right in Scripture. They have been taught this error for at least 30 years. Those folks need complete retraining before they become members. If they refuse the re-education program, then you certainly don’t need them as members to stir up your congregation to error.

Andrew @ #69,
Those are excellent suggestions. Thank you.

William’s quite right about catechesis!

My e_ca cousin told me she had never seen a Lutheran catechism until she sorted out her deceased father’s personal effects. Her sons were several years out of ‘confirmation’ at the time and that was 20 years ago.

You simply cannot assume that incoming e_ca understand much beyond rejecting homosexual pastors. The assumption that the Bible is just another book to pick and choose from goes back to the ’60′s at least.

FTM, it might be a good idea if every new member (no matter what their antecedents) took the Pastor’s instruction class and that that class be long enough to cover essential Lutheran doctrines. Even from lcms you might be transferring someone who came in after a Saturday’s discussion. If they were “born Lutheran” a refresher is still useful.

[You might, if nothing else, clear up the notion cited here, that "we all believe in the same God".]

@helen #72

Helen:

I believe my church recommends it for everyone coming in, but doesn’t require it from members of other LCMS churches. I’m sure one of the pastors talks to the new members about their faith and makes sure they have a proper understanding, but still recommends the class.

It’s also recommended for current members to renew their understanding; we frequently have several members take it each time it is offered; it both helps the new members start to be friends with some existing members as well as helps ensure a proper understanding of our members.

Of course, it’s not required — there should be some way to make everyone take such a class every 5 or 10 years, but .. we all know it’s difficult to get some people in the door just for Sunday services.

In regards to Helen#72

Well do they still practice Confirmation in elca. And if they do what do they base doctrine and practices or beiefs of the church. Yes I know all is based on HOLY SCRIPTURE but then we have our creeds etc…. Do you think the up coming generations know who Martin Luther was??? Just wondering when I read ALL the above comments. As I wrote JUST WONDERING?

I couldn’t agree more with your observation. A little leaven ruins the whole loaf. Yes we are to be open to people but we do not treat strangers the same way we do family. Let’s say the stranger/visitor is a drug dealer or pedophile. If the church is the family of God, we will use God’s standards as our “house rules” and make family members aware of them. That is catechisis. sp Strangers or visitors come to stay for only awhile and if they have bad manners, we excuse them. But if they want to become part of the family, they need to know what kind of family they are getting into. Maybe some will stay and some will go, but all should be aware we do not condone drug dealing or pedophilia in our house and we ask that they do not try to influence other family members to engage or accept their sin. Apply this to all sins (yes all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) and homosexuality becomes just another sin that needs to be dealt with. They need to repent and as I have said before, sex is not a right outside of marriage no matter what century you live in. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen outside of marriage but it is still wrong. Homosexuals should not be given a pass here just because they prefer the same sex. It is still immoral outside of God designed marriage between a man and a woman. @William Kope #70

@Mrs. Hume #52
Mrs. Hume,

Sorry about the delay. The pastor first told his wife and then told the DP who immediately told him he was to no longer minister to that congregation. Then after speaking with the DP he called and spoke with the congregational; president and head elder. This all happened while the district was in convention. So then I gathered the men of the circuit for the telling and praying for not only the pastor and his wife but also for the congregation that was hurting. One comment from the congregation that still haunts me to this day was: “Can’t you just go away and get fixed and then return?” This young man has now married another man and they are living in an open relationship and attending a United Methodist Church.

William Kope :MBW #36
“”There are still Lutheran Christians in ELCA.
MO needs to be both firm and welcoming.””
I would hope complete catechisis was accomplished prior to them being allowed into membership. I doubt if any current member of an ELCA congregation understands what being Lutheran entails. They certainly need to understand that Scripture is infallible, without error and completely inspired by Gods the Holy Spirit. right now all members of ELCA congregations pick and choose what is right in Scripture. They have been taught this error for at least 30 years. Those folks need complete retraining before they become members. If they refuse the re-education program, then you certainly don’t need them as members to stir up your congregation to error.

Our LC-MS congregation has quite a few ELCA “refugees” in the pews for a number of months. They are not members. They have no intention of becoming members of our LC-MS church. They are waiting for their ELCA congregation to switch to something else, like LCORE or L-MC. That process isn’t going too well, but that’s another story. Our pastor feels bad for them and has been communing them even though he and our congregation knows they are short-timers and not members. Our church leadership feels “bad” for them and wants them to have the comfort of the Lord’s Supper in their time of trial.

Now they are letting them help with education, VBS, etc.

What do we do about this?!

Can’t marry another man according to God’s law. He said it was not good for man to be alone and created woman, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh that they along with all creation should be fruitful and multiply. I don’t know how we have allowed a generation or two to turn God’s law completely upside down and try to convince us God has now changed His mind and we can all just do as we please. I just don’t understand why the gay people who claim to be Christian think they are exempt from the same laws all other Christians must adhere to. Yes, we all sin, but we are to repent of those sins, not ask others to support us in our sin. We simply must get back to the fact the gay or not, sex outside marriage is a sin.

It grieves me to hear of both a family and a congregation so hurt. But, unfortunately, I have known far too many cases like that.

In post 51 you said, “I am simply pointing out a fact of how well they are able to disguise themselves as being non homosexual.”

It’s not that they intend to disguise themselves. It’s that when you are young you really believe you can handle it. I’ve talked to a number of guys where were sure that becoming a pastor would fix them. Others thought that if only they got married they would be cured. Of course, neither worked so they found themselves messing up again and again and every time they told themselves it would be the last time. Finally the guilt got to the point that they could not take it anymore and they told their wife or they brought home a disease or were “outed” by a former lover. By that time a whole family and congregation were hurt in the process.

In post 51 you also said, “I know that our seminaries while they do a great job, must not convince some people because I had the unfortunate obligation as a circuit counselor to preach in a congregation whose pastor admitted he was a homosexual”

Again, it’s not so much the convincing that is the problem. Both seminaries do talk about the issue and do discuss it is class – I just talked to a 2nd year student a couple of weeks ago and he let me know it does come up. And most guys who wind up in that position began their ministry believing that homosexual behavior was wrong and thinking they could handle it. But the guilt finally got so bad that rather than face it they convinced themselves it was OK and hurt their family and congregation.

What they really need to do though is to emphasize confession/absolution. That is really the only thing that works with this issue, to have a confessor (more than one if possible) and talk to him early and often. This is one sin (certainly not the only one) in which secrecy and self confidence are killers. You have to figure out that you can’t fix yourself and that the only healthy thing to do is to take it to God through a pastor and hear His forgiveness spoken directly to you. In fact, I wish they could assign every sem student a confessor and insist they talk to him at least every other week. But I suppose that would be too legalistic.

Good points, Andrew. One last thing I would like to add. We keep talking about gays in the sense that they are sexually active. In light of that, as Christians they should remain celibate or be guilty of fornication just as heterosexuals would be. Being gay simply does not give license for sex. There are millions of people in the world who are not sexually active for various reasons, many of them because of physical disabilities and they live normal, active lives. If the gay community wants to be a part of the church and find acceptance, they have to hear the same exhortation of sexual purity as the rest of the body. The argument here of course is that they can NOT get married because of secular law and therefore cannot have a sexual relationship that is not outside of marriage. Again though, Roman Catholic priests take vows of chastity and seem to do fine except for those who break those vows. They would be under the same exhortation to confess, repent and remain celibate afterward as would all members of the body who are engaged in fornication. You would think this would fall under “what happens behind closed doors is nobody’s business”, but God sees behind all of the doors we tend to want to hide behind when we sin.

@Rick #24
Thank you for your eloquent and spot on comment. My family and I feel as if we have been through a divorce. Leaving our church was one of the hardest things to do; albeit the right thing to do. We have searched the scripture for any evidence that we might have missed concerning the issue of homosexual practice. It is a sin! ELCA needs to drop the word Lutheran from their title and insert the words “Culturally Correct”.ECCCA; don’t you think?