President Kieschnick’s Curious Response to the LCMS Convention, by Pr. Rossow
President Kieschnick has written a curious response to the LCMS convention. On the one hand, it is great that he prays God’s blessing on the new presidium. On the other hand, I am not sure about his comparison of the LCMS to the church in Corinth. He is correct that we are divided like the church in Corinth but it seems odd that he would admit that on July 21st when just a few weeks ago he was touting our unity under his leadership. It also may be uncharitable to label the convention that voted him out of office as “Corinthian immature.”
Maybe I am reading something into this note that is not there. We certainly agree with President Kieschnick when he quotes St. Paul affirming that God is the one who gives the growth in the church.
Here is the text. Let us know what you think. (This is from President Kieschnick’s weekly “Perspectives” which you can sign up for at the LCMS website.)
Volume I Number 42
“Planting, Watering, Growing”
The 64th Regular Convention of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod is now history. Resolutions were adopted, decisions were made, leaders were elected. At the convention and throughout the Synod, a wide variety of emotions and responses resulted—rejoicing, grieving, praying, and wondering. Affirming that Christ is Lord of His church, brothers and sisters in Christ responded in different ways to the election of a new Synod president. The office of president of a national church body, especially The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, is a sacred trust. The president is called to lead the church to internal peace, productivity, and even prosperity, especially in a time of external uncertainty, economic recession, and international conflict. Doing so is not an easy or simple task. I pray the blessing of our gracious God will abide with the new president and vice-presidents-elect, upon whom the mantle of Synod leadership will now be placed.
In the New Testament, Paul addresses a church in conflict, experiencing divided loyalty. It was a young church, characterized by partisan, immature behavior. He writes words worthy of consideration, especially at this time in the LCMS: “… For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, ‘I follow Paul,’ and another, ‘I follow Apollos,’ are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed … I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Co r. 3:3-11).
May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always!
Initial observations:He doesn’t mention President-elect Harrison by name …
He quotes the I Corinthians passage as a indirect reference to our disunity … funny why he waits until AFTER the convention to make this kind of statement …
“The president is called to lead the church to internal peace, productivity, and even prosperity” … ??? I thought that the president was simply there to assure that all of us are walking in the same direction – the direction of God’s Word! No mention of Scripture and the Confessions … ?Just my observations. What do y’all think?
I harken back to the days of Dr. Bohlmann’s ‘sour grapes’ letter after his unelection! It must be a modern thing to complain after the fact! I don’t remember reading that Dr. Walther complained about the one who was president after he had been from the start, nor that when he came back did the one he replace complain. Must be a modern thing this type of ‘sour grapes’ post convention writing!
Friends,
Cut him some slack will you. If your congregants went to such lengths analyzing your every words how would you fare? A single message, like a single sermon can miss the mark or be misunderstood. Put the best construction on it and leave the sleeping dog lay.
“Curious” is a very appropriate term for the president’s statement. Division exists, to be sure, as many of the votes at convention indicated. Perhaps it is less about the choice of text and more about the description of the Corinthian church as young and immature. All of the churches were young and immature at that point; they were all still first generation after Jesus’ ascencion. The LCMS, by comparison, even if we forget our link to Germany, is well into the days of Irenaeus, who, as I recall, had to write a lengthy treatise entitled “Against Heresies”. The state of Synod right now does not tell me that we are young or immature. It tells me that we are sinners and the devil is on the attack, as he always has been, upon the children of God.
@Art Casci #3
Words, especially published words, have consequences. Too often we “cut slack” when we read what we know isn’t quite right but we don’t want to “cause a stink”. When the President of the Synod writes and the PUBLISHES his words, they are supposed to have been considered and reviewed and purposefully edited so that we can not “read into” those words anything that they do not say. (I’m not giving the SP any special powers or position but…) Words have consequences, maybe it would be good if we DID analyze the Sunday sermon so well. Many folks do, I know, because I’m one of them.
It sounds as though he is trying to tell those who were left hurting and grieving at his loss to buck up and stop this—I follow Kieschnick or I follow Harrison, of course, if he had won… the message may have been—this is the way its gonin’ be! Love it or leave it.
I watched several parts of the live stream…Pres. Kieschnick looked to me as though he knew it was his last convention, the nomination count was the ‘handwriting on the wall.’ He may have tried hard to convince himself otherwise but somewhere he knew.
As a quick aside…I often like to tell others that there is one thing Lutherans do very well and that is sing….the music, choir, band-(did they tune), solos sounded just terrible. Choirs were flat, the band sour and the voices for solo work were substandard. I’m just saying—that’s how it sounded to me.
@Art Casci #3
I agree, Rev. Casci. I am not/was not a Kieschnick supporter (voted against him six times), but it’s picking at nits to critique this statement. I found a couple things there that I questioned, but I see no reason to even mention them. That is his statement–it speaks for itself. Let’s let it stand, and move on, already.
Johannes (movin’ on…)
The news update I got from the SED admitted that there was disunity and conflict the day after Harrison was elected. Before it was always united in doctrine and divided in practice if there was any recognition of disunity at all. For some reason they chose the day after the election to finally acknowledge the problem the synod faces. It struck me as odd and even made me a little mad at first. However, then I thought long and hard about it. Questions of motives and timing and attitude aside. The statement is true. We do not have unity. Some finally recognize that now.
So we can read into the words all we want. Even though the timing may be a bit suspect this is a GOOD THING. Isn’t this exactly what confessional Lutherans have wanted for these last 9 years? Step one is admitting there is a problem. It is finally out in the open. Harrison recognizes it and Kieschnick admits it. It’s Time! Lets begin the repentance, the forgiveness, the healing.
I do think he is saying the church is in conflict, but I don’t think the evidence proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is calling the LCMS immature.
I think it’s appropriate to ask God for grace upon those leaving office, that any bitterness or sadness is comforted by the Gospel.
1Cor 3:3-11 is Scripture…
I’m inclined to read President Kieschnick’s statement as his honest attempt to explain what happened in Houston.
I disagree with his explanation. The divisions in the LCMS are genuinely doctrinal, and not a matter of loyalty to this or that man. Perhaps 1 Corinthians 1:17-19 would be more appropriate to our situation:
Still, all of Paul’s admonitions to the Corinthians always apply to us.
TW
@STEVEN BOBB #5
Is there false teaching in what he said? IF so name it. If not shut up!!!!
Not reelected – for some – or simply retiring from a position – for others – are difficult times at best. Let us put the “best construction” on this statement as caring brothers & sisters in Christ. @Johannes #7
I thought we were “more united than ever…”
I fear the divisions in the LCMS will continue. Where is the compassion in these statements?
Observes / validates emotions … fine.
Acknowledges gravity of task … fine.
Prays blessings on new leaders … very good.
Young church … true.
Immature behaviors … very true.
Admonishes against party spirit … right.
Christ is the only foundation. Amen.
Let’s hear it for the eighth commandment, and Luther’s explanation!
Thank you for putting the best construction on everything, mbw.
Johannes
Just a lurker’s observation about this message board and to a much larger extent, the LutherQuest one.
Many posts carry a very rigid tone, vitriolic in some cases. Words and phrases are zealously dissected and evaluated. The document that Pres. Harrison wrote, “It’s Time” very astutely references how we continue to live with the “divisions rooted in that era” (referencing the Seminex walkout). I agree that we came out correctly in seeing what the Bible is, but we continue to very aggressively attack each other.
I agree with Art to ease off. It is certain that Dr. Kieschnick is experiencing all kinds of emotions. I am thankful for his leadership for the last decade. I believe that he wanted the best for the LCMS and strove to honor God in carrying that out. I trust that Pres. Harrison will as well.
MH also called for ALL of us to believe the Word of God and trust God to lead us to a more unified church. We can start by easing off the throttle and giving the benefit of the doubt.
It is too bad that Pr. Kieschnick did not go on to quote v. 12: “What I mean is that each one of you says, ‘I belong to Paul,’ or ‘I belong to Apollos,’ or ‘I belong to Cephas,’ or ‘I belong to Christ.’” No doubt there is plenty of sinful party spirit to go around within the LCMS, but I can think of only one group that has openly prostituted the Lord’s name as a party label.
I also see no need to pick apart President Kieschnick’s final remarks, having lost re-election.
General observations may still be in order: I find it curious, as did others, that prior to the convention the LCMS was pronounced “united.” We were “ONE.” Now, all of a sudden, this president can be honest about divisions in the synod, and he uses a letter wishing the next president well to try to call the synod “partisan, immature.” I personally feel he could have done a better job in selecting a text which better mirrors our times and situation. I think a better text might have been I Thessalonians 5:21, 22:
21 “But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil.” (NASB)
Hebrews 4:14 would have been another good choice:
14 “Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” (NASB)
Or even Revelation 3:11:
“I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. (ESV)
Jude 1:3 would have also been an excellent choice:
“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” (NKJV)
Excuse me, but who are you to tell people to shut up? That certainly is not a Christian response.
@Rick #20
Rick, thank you. I wasn’t going to respond to Mr. Casci as I don’t often believe that rudeness deserves response, however, I chose my words carefully and did not even intimate that what Pres. K wrote and published was either true or not true. Read what I wrote . (see above #5) I clearly say ONLY that words do have consequences and we. as the readers, have every right and indeed responsibility to analyse them and understand what is being said or left unsaid.
Perhaps we should interpret this letter as a bit of a confession. After all President Kieschnick has been the leader upon whom the mantle of Synod leadership was placed as we have experienced this divided loyalty.
As a Synod we have been partisan with the political groups like Jesus First and United List taking up the two sides. We’ve trusted different men and business consultants over the Word of God to bring growth to God’s Kingdom. We’ve put Christ on an equal pedestal with Mohamad, Buda, etc. after 9/11. We’ve fired and tried to get rid of Confessional brothers. We’ve made it acceptable for our theology to be able to be voted up or down by a super majority at convention. We have given our Synod President Pope like powers. Yes, divided loyalty fits the bill. We need to repent as individuals and as a Synod for not being fully loyal to Christ.
All he’s saying is that “us1st” is still going to be around, IMHO. We knew that.
The president is called to lead the church to internal peace, productivity, and even prosperity, especially in a time of external uncertainty, economic recession, and international conflict.
President Kieschnick seems to be mistaken as to what organization made him a president! I don’t know about the rest of you, but I did not/do not expect assistance with my “prosperity” or lack thereof, to come from St Louis. That’s Joel Osteen’s line!
(I could wish GK had worked harder for “internal peace” but let’s hope he will do so from now on. He can help a lot with his own “faction” if he will.)
We need to pray for unity under the Gospel and then work for it, too.
Lord, have mercy!
@helen #23
> prosperity
What I read out of his statement was ‘stewardship of synodical assets’
@Art Casci #25
God in His great mercy sent Jesus to die for all of your sins and all of my sins as well. Christ has died. Christ is Risen. Christ will come again!
Psalm 103:12
If I might, without my words being picked apart for picking apart
…
I think it’s a fantastic statement taken at face value. Accordingly, we should hearken to ST. Paul’s words to Corinth in addressing our great division with the Word of God on such issues as:
1. the elevation of leadership qualities of the apostles over the foolishness of the Word,
2. the acceptance of divorce and cohabitation as normative and worthy of celebration,
3. boasting of syncretistic worship practices at the expense of believers’ consciences,
4. the abuse of communion as something less than God’s action of unity in doctrine
5. the lifting up of supernatural personalities and experiences over and above simple faith and works of mercy
Yes…we really can learn from the Church in Corinth at this time.
+pax+
Art,
Even through your rudeness you have made a very good point. I seriously questioned putting this post up. What finally motivated me is the newsiness of it. We try to be the go-to place for Lutheran news and commentary and this was newsworthy.
I would just as soon shut-up and let Matt Harrison do his “Koininia” thing (which I whole-heartedly support). I do not want to get in the way of that important work by irritating LCMS moderates and liberals but there will continue to be serrious questions to be addressed and I will highlight them. I am not very political, just intersted in the truth. I will try to keep my big mouth shut (or in this case my big “return key” that posts all these things) so that irritation is at a minimum in order for the Koinonia project to have its way with us but there will be posts like this one that will have at least some edge to them.
These are going to be intersting and heady days for the LCMS in the months to come. I have learned a lot already in these first few days of post Harrison election and I am sure I will learn much more. I am sure I will get some things wrong and that is where people like you with their “shut-ups” will be quite helpful.
TR
@mbw #24
> prosperity
What I read out of his statement was ‘stewardship of synodical assets’
Dear mbw,
I am not going to rise to that one!
God bless!
Dear Pastor Rossow,
Thanks for posting President Kieschnick’s letter and for commenting on it.
I don’t think that you need to apologize for your opinions in the post here, or elsewhere. If you don’t express those opinions, then there is nothing for the commenters to agree with or react against. It just seems to be the nature of blogging, as I have seen it, that the “truth” on any subject is not going to be found in the first or second rounds. As long as we all can understand that blogging is mostly “opinion,” then we should be able to accept each others “opinions” and thereby accept each other too.
Regarding the President’s letter, I thought (my opinion) that it was actually a pretty good letter. I don’t think I could have done better than he did. He is right that there are divisions among us. No doubt about that. But every congregation I have been a member has had some level of divisions, too. I think this is the “sinner” side of congregations.
What is different about congregations is how they treat the problem of divisions. Some congregations “go to war,” with always unhappy results. In other congregations, divisions work with each other in a positive way. Even though one side or another may throw out an occasional barb at a voter’s meeting, they know they have to get along–and they do!
I think (my opinion) that, in his own way, President Kieschnick has agreed with President-Elect Harrison on the need for dialogue in order reduce the level of conflict and division among us. This does not mean sweeping issues and problems “under the rug,” but facing them clearly and with fairness to all concerned. I think that this agreement between the two Presidents is an unusually propitious sign for better days ahead for us all!
Yours in Christ, Martin R. Noland
@Art Casci #26
Thank you for your apology Art. We have to remember that each of us has opinions about the matters of synod. This is a good place in which to air those opinions. But I have found that you do have to have some thick skin at times.
@revfisk #28
I’m thankful you are a part of THIS Church. Solid exegesis.
As always Martin, excellent commentary.
Words have consequences, but most important, words have meaning. Harrison’s name was not mentioned because Harrison is not the concern. Who could argue against such grace filled words:
“I pledge to you that I will not coerce you. I will do my best by the Word of Christ to lead with a generous Gospel of Jesus Christ, which forgives us all of our sins, and motivates us to love and care for our neighbor in mercy and compassion. And I will work as hard as I possibly can for unity around the clear and compelling Word of God and nothing else.”
Who could not love these grace filled words?
The concern behind K’s word is the uncertainty that comes from the return of the conservatives to the whitehouse, ala the demise of Jesus First. Maybe a little sour grapes at what he felt was unfair criticism, maybe a little fear. But even more, it communicates a wish and prayer that we will embark on the grace filled path H has laid before us. In that regards, it is a clear nod to H’s gracious acceptance speech, that we might heed it and work to be one.
I was happy to hear about the election of Matthew Harrison and find outgoing president Gerald Kieschnick’s quoting of 1 Cor. 3:3-11 curiously out of context. Similarly taken out of context is the oft quoted “put the best construction on everything.” The LCMS is doctrinally divided. When it comes to tolerating false doctrine(s), such admonitions are often naively out of place. Luther, for example, could be a merciless polemicist when attacking false doctrine, yet he often showed great charity and humility to his spiritual enemies in person. Defending the truth is not to be misconstrued as attacking the individual. It would be nice if more of us could better understand this distinction. It seems obvious to me that the divisiveness in the LCMS stems from seriousl doctrinal disagreements not simply from one group preferring one teacher (or president) over another. The personalities involved are only important as reflections (representatives) of the underlying doctrinal disagreement. It’s disingenuous for closet liberals and so-called “moderates” within the LCMS who have stirred up all the disharmony to turn around and decry the predictable disunity as stemming from a lack of love, tolerance and charity. Look at the ELCA for a clear understanding of what results from “love, tolerance and charity” being incorrectly applied to doctrine vs people. I pray for better days ahead for the LCMS. I also pray that more souls within the synod will begin to understand the disagreements for what they actually are, serious doctrinal disagreements, not mere human squabbles. May God bless us!
Why, thank you. *blushes* XD
I will definitely be in the minority here, but in some ways I am a LCMS liberal and a conservative. I am grew up Eastern Orthodox, but those pesky Lutheran schools won me over and now I can proudly say that I am a Lutheran school teacher. I must also confess that I am a Kieschnick supporter.
Over many issues of doctrine I am a conservative. Over other matters, well liberal is my name. I fear for our church during these times. I have watched with tears in my eyes as people were driven from the church without a hint of compassion for their troubles. I DO NOT think the LCMS should deviate from faithful doctrine and I would never hint at that. I will say that if we refuse to be in this world we will dwindle. I like the banner on this page; “Still attending Grandpa’s church. It sums it up, but the meaning behind it is only half right. We should be proud that we are still attending Grandpa’s church, but we also should be willing to adapt the way we go about the things that we do.
British broadcaster and Methodist layperson Colin Morris (don’t cringe too much
) stated this about the Christianity in the U.K.
“The church has died, and not always gloriously on a cross, but sometimes weak with old age and comfortably in its bed, and onlookers have seen the corpse laid to rest and gone away muttering, “And we thought that you might have saved Israel.” Then has occurred and extraordinary thing. The community of faith has sprung a new life, presumably because it has the Lord who knows how to find His way out of a tomb.
What would I recommend that the church do in this world? I will let Bonhoeffer say it. “God wants us to love Him eternally with our whole hearts-not in such a way as ti injure or weaken our earthly love, but to provide a kind of cantus firmus to which the other melodies of life provide the counterpoint. One of the contrapuntal themes… is earthly affection…. It’s a good thing that the [Song of Songs] is in the Bible, in face of all those who believe that the restraint of passion is Christian… Where the cantus firmus is clear and plain, the counterpoint can be developed to its limits… Only a polyphony of this kind can give life a wholeness and at the same time assure us that nothing calamitous can happen as long as the cantus firmus is kept going… Rely on the cantus firmus.” Letters and Papers From Prison
So if the cantus firmus is the truth that will not be altered, the harmony is the little stuff the adiaphora.
Andrew,
Thanks for posting your comment. The more folks like you we can get to comment the better off we will be and the better off the synod will be.
I would like to offer an explanation of your Morris quote. I do not think it makes your case. The church in Europe died because it gave up on the truth of God’s word, not because it would not change and adapt. The folks on this site fear that the moderates in the LCMS (like President Kieschnick) by giving up on the traditional forms are opening up the door to compromising the truth. Why? Because they are replacing churchly forms with worldly forms.
TR
Lighten up people. K is just taking his ball and wanting to go home after lashing out a little. Just a typical reaction for who has his hopes dashed. No deep, dark mystical secret.
.
@Pastor Tim Rossow #38
I do understand that fear. The ELCA did just that. Forgetting and forsaking the past and heritage is what must never be done. In that sense you are right about Still Attending Grandpa’s church, but President Kieschnick was also right by saying that it this is not your grandfathers church. We must not lose sight of the present and the future. I strongly believe that we must be part of the culture that we live in. Our culture is increasingly “me” driven. I will talk on my iphone, while using my ipad and listening to my ipod sitting on my itoilet. We must be able to reach to them, because “me” culture is leading to destruction.
Oh yes the European church died, but I do believe the quote still applies because there is faith in the Resurrection of Christ and Christ is the only one that could bring a church from the ashes of their rejection of Him.
I pray that President Harrison keeps us firmly grounded on our past, but also steers us towards a wonderful future with Christ as the Alpha and Omega and everything in between.
@Andrew Strickland #37
> I have watched with tears in my eyes as people were driven from the church without a hint of compassion for their troubles.
Folks with very thick skins and/or solid lifelong credentials and/or plenty of friends in the church might not understand this. It does happen. I have been on both ends of this. I am sorry for when I was on the driving end. I have learned from being on the driven end.
I think ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives’ both participate in such behavior and suffer from it. It seems that the liberal way of doing it is through groupthink and subtle but impenetrable exclusion. It seems the conservative way of driving people out is more direct. I do have to say that the direct way, even while it is sometimes in error, is more honest, but that may be a personal bias.
What some of us can hardly appreciate is the degree of questioning and doubt that can accompany bad treatment in the church. I can never assent to anyone who blames anyone else for his loss of faith, but neither can I assent to anyone who will take no responsibility for tempting the weak by being insensitive.
So, here’s one conservative-come-lately who thinks he understands in part where you are coming from.
President Kieschnick writes: “The president is called to lead the church to internal peace, productivity, and even prosperity….” My hope is that President-elect Harrison will see his task a bit differently: to lead the church in a bold confession of sound doctrine and consistent practice. That’ll give me an ‘internal peace’ regarding synod that I haven’t had for a long time! God grant it!!!
To those who have commented on my initial reactions … thank you for your comments and responses.
Yes, in reflection, I was somewhat nit-picky. And, in the spirit of koinonia and restoration to the truth, I do concur with many of you that Rev. Kieshnick was cordial, was professional, and was for the most part straightforward.
The church has spoken. Rev. Harrison has been elected our president. Our prayers, our study of the Bible and the Confessions, and our sincere theological/confessional conversation with our brothers and sisters are what is needed. It’s Time – NOW – to move forward and bring the strength of unity back to Missouri. The world is waiting.
>> My hope is that President-elect Harrison will see his task a bit differently: to lead the church in a bold confession of sound doctrine and consistent practice. That’ll give me an ‘internal peace’ regarding synod that I haven’t had for a long time! God grant it!!! <<
Amen, brother!
@Brian Haberl #35
Thank you for this post, this is how I`m teaching my own children. That is, you can still give somone respect without respecting their opinions or beliefs.
I find the rather consistent implication that the “confessionals” in the LCMS refuse to engage the culture to be one of the greatest myths that exists. To be sure, there are likely some out there who think we ought to repristinate 1596 or 1873 in every possible way. But there are a lot more who recognize that a true engagement of culture is less like putting on camoflauge and more like putting on those plastic pants fishermen wear to keep the water out (fishermen will need to forgive my ignorance on this!)
Meanwhile, those who consistently have harped about engaging the culture without changing the substance have never managed to pull it off. Just FYI – the following is a random pull from the “studies” offered at Faith Lutheran Church in Troy MI, a frontrunner in this whole debaucle:
If the argument really were just about adiaphora (and if we understood what our confessions actually say adiaphoric unity is good for,) this wouldn’t be the fight it’s been. There is simply much more going on here. There are two (or three) differing confessions (doctrinal systems) at work in the LCMS.
At the heart of the matter is what we believe about “election” and how/when/where this theology applies to missiology…. It is my fervent prayer that Pastor Harrison will lead us down a road where we embrace what we say on paper we believe. In my experience as a pastor, that has not been the motif of the last administration.
Glad to have you comment! If my words seem snarky, they certainly aren’t intended that way. I do find it wearying that the resounding gong of “conservatives never change or adapt” is beat so long and so often and so hard. I really don’t think there are that many who fit that bill in reality.
+pax+
At heart I am conservative doctrinally speaking. Now I am jaded towards confessional Lutherans, but that came from a personal experience. In the missional sense, I am much more liberal, but not so much that I would advocate open communion or ditching the liturgy, preaching on doctrines that are not Lutheran. I will be the first to say the most contemporary or blended worship styles are not done well at all and leave much to be desired. While I grew up high church (eastern rite) I feel that we are not using our talents to relate to others. We must not bend on our doctrine.
Looks like Faith Lutheran in its efforts to be relational forgot to be missional. A grave error.
“But there are a lot more who recognize that a true engagement of culture is less like putting on camoflauge and more like putting on those plastic pants fishermen wear to keep the water out (fishermen will need to forgive my ignorance on this!) This is the way it needs to be done.”
At a LCMS teachers conference, many were shocked that our keynote speaker was Leonard Sweet. I know shocking. He is not Lutheran, but one thing he said was very clear. Many of us are Gutenbergers living in a Google world and we must reach to the Google world as Googlers not Guternbergers. It is about how we communicate.
I want to learn more from you guys, since my first experience with a Confessional Lutheran was so negative, I probably have a warped sense of the reality of the Confessional movement.
@Andrew Strickland #47
Hi Andrew,
Have you read Gene Veith’s “The Spirituality of the Cross”? If you haven’t that is an excellent read and especially the parts concerning vocation, since as Lutherans we engage the culture around us naturally through our vocations. In other words, engaging the culture is not a contrived program learned from missiologists or church growth analysts.
Since you brought up Leonard Sweet, the problem is not that he isn’t Lutheran, but he isn’t a Christian. He is a panentheist deeply involved in what used to be called the New Age movement. That he has been allowed to trapse around LCMS conferences and events unchecked is a travesty, to say the least.
@Andrew Strickland #47
Many of us are Gutenbergers living in a Google world and we must reach to the Google world as Googlers not Guternbergers. It is about how we communicate.
Interesting comment! You do know that Project Gutenberg can be “googled”?
If you want Lutheran material on line, however, “google” Project Wittenberg, initiated originally by Robert Smith, Electronics Librarian at CTS, Fort Wayne. We who are Lutheran are not as “behind the times” as the Leonard Sweet devotees assume. We communicate like everyone else, (as this blog should demonstrate).
The difference, as Jim has just pointed out, is that we have a Christian message.
Andrew #37,
As a fellow fan of Pr Bonhoeffer, I’d ask you to compare Dr. Kieschnick’s “The president is called to lead the church to internal peace, productivity, and even prosperity, especially in a time of external uncertainty, economic recession, and international conflict.” w/ Pr. Bonhoeffer’s: “when Christ calls a man he bids him come and die.” One is a theology of glory and the other is the theology of the cross.
An understanding of missions that sees “productivity and prosperity” as proper goals for Christ’s church on earth will always be focused on methods, and it will always be at real risk of usurpation by the culture it seeks to engage. An understanding of missions that sees its goal as faithful witness will be focused on Word and Sacrament, and whether that leads to productivity and prosperity, or martyrdom, or even irrelevance on a human level it has Christ’s promise to reach “as many as were appointed to eternal life” (Acts 13:48.)
Pax Christi+,
-Matt Mills
Dear Andrew (comment #47 et al),
I am sincerely sorry to hear about your experience with that “confessional Lutheran,” whoever he/she was, whatever the circumstance. Things like that will “turn you off” to just about anything that reminds you of that person or experience. I have had my own share of being pushed out of congregations and positions and jobs by both “liberals” and “conservatives” and “whatever.” So I know how that goes and how it feels.
The wrong thing to do with experiences like that is to merely react to it emotionally. Then you become a “reactionary,” of one type or another. Better is to analyze the situation and persons involved. Was it a situation where people reacted poorly to stress, conflict, or disagreement? The majority of people on this planet do that, so you can’t blame it on a group loyalty or personality trait.
This is the situation that Western societies are facing right now with Islam. Are the Muslims just reacting poorly to stress, conflict, and disagreement in the nations they live? Well, that is just human nature. Or, is there something intrinsic or essential to Islam that makes it violent? Quoting all sorts of passages about “jihad” will not answer that question. Islam has to be understood as a complete religious system, in order to answer whether or not it is intrinsically violent, or leads to violence.
“Confessional Lutheran” is a religious type, that includes several US denominations, such as the LCMS, WELS, ELS, and a few others. It includes churches around the world associated with the ILC and the WELS global association. It is characterized by allegiance in doctrine and ecclesial practice to the 1580 Book of Concord, which summarizes the teachings of Luther and his colleagues. There are a very few folks who might make the name “confessional Lutheran” mean something more than this; but for us it really just means people who want to follow LCMS doctrine and eccesial practice, as defined in LCMS Constitution Article II and VI.
“Confessional Lutherans” are a religious minority in the United States. The three dominant Christian groups are Roman Catholic, Evangelical, and Liberal Mainline. LCMS and Confessional Lutherans do not fit into any of those groups, so there will always be stress, conflict, and disagreement between those folks who follow the “confessional Lutheran” religious type and those who also want to interject aspects of one of the three dominant religious groups.
“Confessional Lutherans” are also morally conservative, so they are likely to come into conflict with those people in our culture who are morally liberal.
If we want to be Lutherans in the 21st century, we have to learn to live with disagreement and conflict, and how to lead by example in “cool-headed dialogue. This is because most people become agitated emotionally over religious disagreements. Pastor Harrison’s “It’s Time” is an excellent proposal for “cool-headed dialogue” within our church.
I see “It’s Time” as necessary in our life as a church, in this point in our history. If we can’t learn “cool-headed dialogue,” then the constant stress of “hot-headed dialogue” will lead to greater membership loss. Or we will solve the stress by transforming ourselves into one of the main religious types, as the ELCA has done by becoming “Liberal Mainline.” So our LCMS has three choices: 1) learn cool-headed dialogue; 2) begin to fracture and continue membership decline; or 3) ape Catholics, Evangelicals, or Liberals.
Regarding being “missional,” Dr. Ken Schurb has written an excellent article on what that term means. I believe it was published in LOGIA. Some folks in the LCMS have claimed that “If you don’t do X, you are not missional.” In other words, they are mandating to the church HOW it has to do outreach today. Since Scripture has not mandated HOW to do outreach, besides Word and Sacrament ministry, these folks are adding dogma to Scripture.
The fact is that Lutherans do outreach in many different ways, because the HOW of outreach is adiaphora. Some of those ways are different that Evangelical ways, because of our different theology. Our LCMS has been very outreach oriented from the very beginning. Its history of missions and evangelism was slandered by John Tietjen’s “Mission in the Making,” who basically said that LCMS missions were worthless before Danker went to Japan after WWII.
Tietjen’s book was published in the early 1960s, and caused many LCMS pastors, teachers, and leaders to think that we have not been “missional.” The truth is that Tietjen was looking for anything to make “Grandpa’s church” look bad, so he and his crew could come forward as the saviors of the LCMS. Ever since, there has been a large contingent of LCMS people who don’t think LCMS Lutherans are concerned with outreach. They don’t know they were duped by Tietjen, so I don’t hold that against them. They just need to learn our real history!
This comment is longer that I wanted, but you seem open to responses to your comments above. May our Lord bless your work in His church, as you prepare for the next school year.
Yours in Christ, Martin R. Noland
revfisk,
Huh. You’re a pretty bright guy. I should have paid more attention to you when we were in Seminary together. =)
Matt
Dear Jim
I used Sweet’s quote because it struck a nerve with me. I have a pretty good sense of where he is theologically and that I can stay away from. What he has to say on culture is another thing to me. But yes dangerous ground.
@Concerned LCMS Lutheran #20
The word “united” can be verrrrrrrrrrrrry scarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrey these day, especially when it comes to the church as evidenced by all those denominations who in the 60′s and 70′s inserted the word united in their name. Problem with wanting unity today as I see it is that there is always disharmony as we try to figure out who to unite with and what to unite about. It should be obvious that we as Lutherans should unite around the scriptures, the Book of Concord, the proper hymnody and evangelism done properly but I think that is a big task considering all the distractions and attractions with which we are bombarded on a daily basis that would lead us from unity. I think this is God’s job to get us all on board through worthy pastors who will point out nonsense in today’s Christless Christianity and point us ever toward Christ not to the next great program.
Have to share this. I visited my Orthodox dad in the hospital. His priest was there as well. We got into an interesting discussion over the continual division in the western church. The priest laughed, and said you guys are reaping what you sowed. It was funny, but in a sense he was right. We have not been able to halt the continual divisions in the church. Although I did say that I was LCMS and that we were right. Maybe that is why I was excommunicated.
“You guys”, he said, “are alright.”
Martin,
Thank you for the clarifications. I do firmly believe that we have always been missional minded, but I also believe that it needs to shift a little.
Example,
I taught at an inner city Lutheran school for nine years, before we closed. We closed not due to money, but the three association churches were pulling in three different ways. As an aside, a very liberal pastor and a very conservative pastor are not like oil and water, but more like a match and a Christmas tree. I realized that the kids at this school did not have a church. They never went to church and did not have a church home. In essence school was their church. The only place they were going to hear the Gospel was at school. And it was working. Unfortunately the internal strife drove us down.
@Andrew Strickland #54
Yeah…did you point out how divided the Eastern churches really are?
Dear Andrew (comment #54),
This reply will be brief.
On the parochial school issue, brother, I am right there with you!
I have always believed that our Lutheran schools are one of the chief parts of our LCMS outreach. It is one of the unique elements in our LCMS identity. That is the main reason I matriculated at CTC, River Forest, and had intended to become an LCMS elementary school teacher, before going to seminary.
We could have a much broader outreach and more competitive schools (i.e., competitive against Catholic, private, charter, and top-ranked public schools) if our LCMS congregations could work together in supporting schools, in an inter-parish way. Some still do, but many of our parishes have only “parochial vision,” i.e., they are not really interested in cooperating with their neighboring LCMS churches in a significant way.
One bad pastor in the mix in an inter-parish school can tear the whole thing down. Or conflict any which way between pastors, principals, teachers, or lay leaders. It isn’t a “liberal-conservative” thing. Its just bad leadership; and the people who get the brunt of the pain are the teachers–and then the kids–when the school closes. But it is everyone’s loss!
Yours in Christ, Martin R. Noland
Don’t know what I said, Matt, but I appreciate the sentiment.
revfisk,
In particular, your analysis of Corinth in view of (post) modern Western culture in comment 28. But your various blog posts, appearances on Issues, Etc., and other general pithy theological insights.
I sincerely wish the Reverend Kieschnick a happy retirement. I am not without hope that he, personally, might return to professsing pure doctrine and practice. Stranger things have happened! As for the history books, I think I can say with confidence that he will be regarded as the man who did the most damage to Confessional Lutheranism in our time. He will be remembered as the Samuel Simon Schmucker of the 21st Century.
@MCP #56
They are divided, but on cultural lines, which to the Orthodox poses not problem as they place value in their doctrine. Not defending, just sayin. So if my Anticohian Orthodox father visits a Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, OCA, or any other Orthodox church, the doctrine will be the same.
“The president is called to lead the church to internal peace, productivity,
and even prosperity,” quote from Pres. Kieschnick’s “Perspectives”
Um, no. Here we have evidence of either poor, unLutheran theology, or atheology.
No one in the church is ever called to lead her in any such things. That is up
to God. The president is elected to oversee the pastors and congregations and organizations of the LCMS in the faithful confession of the one true faith in what we say and do. Period.
Furthermore, the president of the LC-MS is *not* a called position. If it were we would only have elections when a president died, resigned, or was dismissed for Scriptural cause.
@revfisk #46
I must as a man who loves to flyfish and wishes he didn’t live 2.5 hours from good trout waters both play with with your analogy and disagree wtih the point your trying to make.
The “plastic pants” are waders.
They are in one sense the way to keep the water out and get as close as you can to the fish; but they can be the wrong equipment at the wrong time even the best high tech breathable waders can get hot and stuffy in July and August in the streams adjacent to the Mississippi in Minnesota, Iowa and Wisconsin. Sometime you just have to leave them off otherwise you’ll boil. There’s a reason why lots of self respecting fishermen wade out in aqua socks or sandals in the height of the summer heat enjoying the feeling of a cold spring fed creek rushing over their legs while their upper body sweats.
The same goes for the church. Shut the doors and windows intellectually and spiritually in the midst of the heat and it’s unbearable; even unsafe. Open them up; engage in the culture, debate with your neighbors, and tell them about Jesus and Paul and what they taught.
Pax
John
At least Pres. K’s email wasn’t as bad as Cleveland Cavalier’s President Dan Gilbert’s email after losing LeBron.
Response deleted at author request
@revfisk #65
From Higher Things to Pirate Christian Radio, I’m afraid the rising confessionalism in the LCMS is anything but stuffy.)
+pax+
Don’t be “afraid”! (I don’t really think you are.)
Celebrate Higher Things, Issues Etc., Pirate Christian Radio!
They are a witness to Lutheran faith and are “engaging the culture”.
You do pretty well yourself, “revfisk”!
To create another imperfect analogy: When I was a gardener, I enjoyed getting down in the dirt, planting seeds, pulling weeds, harvesting fruits or vegetables. But I did all this in the garden. I didn’t bring the dirt which was useful there into the living room where we have another attitude about dirt.
So also we may enjoy (or learn to enjoy) some aspects of “the culture”, such as pop music (or even this computer screen) which do not really assist God in serving us in church. IMHO.
(But of course you have to understand that “God serving us” is what should be going on in church.)
Have your concerts in the fellowship hall.
God bless!
I heard that! Yes while the Shepard’s are arguing we sheep are looking for food, and if you have not noticed the flock is wandering off. We sheep get lip service while the real passion in the LCMS is who among you is feeding the sheep in a correct way.
Look, the Shepard over there is holding out his arms to me and turning his back on the arguing flock masters. He cares about me more then the arguments. I think I will travel with him.
@Jim Pierce #48
Bravo to you, Jim. I’m hosting a show tomorrow, September 9, on Leonard Sweet and the LCMS is getting dishonorable mention on the show. The South Wisconsin District is bringing in this New Age false teacher for an ALL DAY seminar at Lake Country Lutheran High School. Interestingly enough, although I have been in broadcasting for 22 years in this city, Rev. Wille will not even return my phone calls, which is not only unprofessional of him, but from a Christian standpoint, is appallingly callous behavior. I am also an LCMS member. Are the denomination’s leadership above accountability now? Just like Rome once was?