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	<title>Comments on: Good Stuff on the Web &#8212; Cranach: The Blog of Veith, on Introverts in Church</title>
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	<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082</link>
	<description>An international fraternity of confessional Lutheran laymen and pastors, supporting proclamation of Christian doctrine in the new media.</description>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72520</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72520</guid>
		<description>I have been in a church which allowed space for wheel chairs and provided a &quot;pocket radio&quot; with ear plug and volume control for those who might need it to hear all of the service. Wheel chair members are not going to argue; the spaces were used.

But can anyone tell me why most people take eye glasses for granted but are &lt;b&gt;extremely&lt;/b&gt; reluctant to pick up needed hearing assistance when it&#039;s provided? 
Then they have the nerve to complain that the Pastor mumbles!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been in a church which allowed space for wheel chairs and provided a &#8220;pocket radio&#8221; with ear plug and volume control for those who might need it to hear all of the service. Wheel chair members are not going to argue; the spaces were used.</p>
<p>But can anyone tell me why most people take eye glasses for granted but are <b>extremely</b> reluctant to pick up needed hearing assistance when it&#8217;s provided?<br />
Then they have the nerve to complain that the Pastor mumbles!</p>
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		<title>By: Celeste</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72504</link>
		<dc:creator>Celeste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72504</guid>
		<description>Thank you.  Someone understands me!  
When I am in the church proper, I&#039;m a total introvert.  I just want to worship and focus on the service......not socializing.  
IF I want to socialize, I&#039;ll do it in the narthex or a social function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you.  Someone understands me!<br />
When I am in the church proper, I&#8217;m a total introvert.  I just want to worship and focus on the service&#8230;&#8230;not socializing.<br />
IF I want to socialize, I&#8217;ll do it in the narthex or a social function.</p>
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		<title>By: Dutch</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72475</link>
		<dc:creator>Dutch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72475</guid>
		<description>David,
You hit the nail on the head.  It is about being genuine, not false, but truthfull in our manner.  This is about being truthfull in our speech &amp; actions.  If we are, what we say we are, &amp; we subscribe, to what we say we do, we are mindful of those around us.  Not for ourselves, but for others.  Should every congregation, have a large print hymnal in every pew? YES. Should every congregations for-go the bells &amp; whistles, to have 1 or 2, hearing impared technical aids, for those who may need them? YES.  If you have physically challenged individuals, do you make a way for them? YES. Why?  If it were you, would you want someone to notice, aid, or encourage you? YES. Are we to encourage those, who have diminished mental capacity, to attend our congregations? YES.  Are we to make the Confessions &amp; Liturgy age appropriate, w/o altering it, for children? YES.

But do we? Not always, no.  I&#039;ve been a member of a church, that went through &amp; spend $$$$ on a revamp, but forgot those who are confined to wheelchairs. (Two families, one a child) If you have members, who have health concerns, you must take that into consideration.  It is called foresight. Odds being what they are, sort of thing.

But we shouldn&#039;t tailor a congregation to fit one specific need? No.  The day any church, in any denom, figuratively hangs a sign, &quot;introverts only&quot; or &quot;extroverts only&quot;, &quot;+55 &amp; over&quot; or &quot;youth &amp; young families only&quot;, etc, you begin the process of segregating the Body of Christ in that denom.  

If Christ &amp; the Apostles didn&#039;t, why would it be reccomended by any of us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,<br />
You hit the nail on the head.  It is about being genuine, not false, but truthfull in our manner.  This is about being truthfull in our speech &amp; actions.  If we are, what we say we are, &amp; we subscribe, to what we say we do, we are mindful of those around us.  Not for ourselves, but for others.  Should every congregation, have a large print hymnal in every pew? YES. Should every congregations for-go the bells &amp; whistles, to have 1 or 2, hearing impared technical aids, for those who may need them? YES.  If you have physically challenged individuals, do you make a way for them? YES. Why?  If it were you, would you want someone to notice, aid, or encourage you? YES. Are we to encourage those, who have diminished mental capacity, to attend our congregations? YES.  Are we to make the Confessions &amp; Liturgy age appropriate, w/o altering it, for children? YES.</p>
<p>But do we? Not always, no.  I&#8217;ve been a member of a church, that went through &amp; spend $$$$ on a revamp, but forgot those who are confined to wheelchairs. (Two families, one a child) If you have members, who have health concerns, you must take that into consideration.  It is called foresight. Odds being what they are, sort of thing.</p>
<p>But we shouldn&#8217;t tailor a congregation to fit one specific need? No.  The day any church, in any denom, figuratively hangs a sign, &#8220;introverts only&#8221; or &#8220;extroverts only&#8221;, &#8220;+55 &amp; over&#8221; or &#8220;youth &amp; young families only&#8221;, etc, you begin the process of segregating the Body of Christ in that denom.  </p>
<p>If Christ &amp; the Apostles didn&#8217;t, why would it be reccomended by any of us?</p>
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		<title>By: Dutch</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72474</link>
		<dc:creator>Dutch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72474</guid>
		<description>Carl,
That was a sweet &amp; witty quote!!!!  Thanks for the smile!
Dutch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl,<br />
That was a sweet &amp; witty quote!!!!  Thanks for the smile!<br />
Dutch</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenkoetter</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72456</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenkoetter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 03:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72456</guid>
		<description>Dr. Noland, I appreciate your comments  (6). In working with a wide variety of blind and visually impaired people, I find many who do not attend worship regularly or at all have felt some extreme abuse or expectation placed upon them which they attribute (rightfully or wrongfully) to the Church. Now, of course, my desire is that everyone I help will eventually come to the services of God&#039;s house and rejoice in the blessings of corporate worship , the preached Word, and administered Sacraments.

Yet, the most helpful thing I&#039;ve found with particularly introverted blind/visually impaired folks is showing them unobtrusive but genuine human care. Especially in the context of one of our Synod&#039;s fifty+ outreach centers for the blind or in church, the display of human concern helps build trust between them and the average  attender of any given church.

So, often, in the CG/CW settings, people feel &quot;lost in the crowd&quot;. Some people like it on the surface because of some private defense they&#039;ve built up. Yet, many feel intimidated because, in the said context, they feel pressured too quickly to be part of a small/encounter group setting.

As we have been pointing out, the liturgical congregation is perfect. Everyone sits, stands, listens/responds in unison. Some people sing well, others do not. And, yet, in this said context, one&#039;s psychological disposition needs not be so much a factor. What counts explicitly is receiving the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus. Including visitors and new members, be they extroverts or introverts, is our joy since we desire that they receive the same gifts our Savior bestows upon all who trust in Him.

It helps, of course, for congregations to have a large print or even braille hymnal available for someone if they be blind/visually impaired. It brings them into participation in the corporate worship and helps remove their understandable self-conscious fears. The same goes when we have the opportunity to help them know when the offering plate is coming, when its time to sit and stand, etc. All it may take is a tap on the knee or a gentle but casual whisper.
What an amazing post from Veith&#039;s blog. There are a lot of directions we can with it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Noland, I appreciate your comments  (6). In working with a wide variety of blind and visually impaired people, I find many who do not attend worship regularly or at all have felt some extreme abuse or expectation placed upon them which they attribute (rightfully or wrongfully) to the Church. Now, of course, my desire is that everyone I help will eventually come to the services of God&#8217;s house and rejoice in the blessings of corporate worship , the preached Word, and administered Sacraments.</p>
<p>Yet, the most helpful thing I&#8217;ve found with particularly introverted blind/visually impaired folks is showing them unobtrusive but genuine human care. Especially in the context of one of our Synod&#8217;s fifty+ outreach centers for the blind or in church, the display of human concern helps build trust between them and the average  attender of any given church.</p>
<p>So, often, in the CG/CW settings, people feel &#8220;lost in the crowd&#8221;. Some people like it on the surface because of some private defense they&#8217;ve built up. Yet, many feel intimidated because, in the said context, they feel pressured too quickly to be part of a small/encounter group setting.</p>
<p>As we have been pointing out, the liturgical congregation is perfect. Everyone sits, stands, listens/responds in unison. Some people sing well, others do not. And, yet, in this said context, one&#8217;s psychological disposition needs not be so much a factor. What counts explicitly is receiving the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus. Including visitors and new members, be they extroverts or introverts, is our joy since we desire that they receive the same gifts our Savior bestows upon all who trust in Him.</p>
<p>It helps, of course, for congregations to have a large print or even braille hymnal available for someone if they be blind/visually impaired. It brings them into participation in the corporate worship and helps remove their understandable self-conscious fears. The same goes when we have the opportunity to help them know when the offering plate is coming, when its time to sit and stand, etc. All it may take is a tap on the knee or a gentle but casual whisper.<br />
What an amazing post from Veith&#8217;s blog. There are a lot of directions we can with it!</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Vehse</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72451</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Vehse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72451</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Katharina (Luther) &amp; the sisters that flew w/her, would still be sitting in their barrels.&lt;/i&gt;

That story is probably a little fishy!  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Katharina (Luther) &amp; the sisters that flew w/her, would still be sitting in their barrels.</i></p>
<p>That story is probably a little fishy!  <img src='http://steadfastlutherans.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dutch</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72435</link>
		<dc:creator>Dutch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72435</guid>
		<description>A few words of caution here in this article.  

Firstly, let&#039;s remember that psychological personality &quot;type&quot; testing (Myers Briggs or portions of) are used in the surveys for CGM programs. It usually one of the first things TCN, or that type of program does, to asses the congregational demographics, congregational populis &amp;  congregational strengths. Something to bear in mind.  If we are willing to point out that error in others (Ablaze!, TCN, Purpose Driven, Fuller U. etc.) , we should avoid doing the same.  Let&#039;s stay above the board, here.  This article, in my mind, lowers us to their level, which is what we try not to do &amp; are very willing to point out here.

Also, I caution anyone, to take great care, in using psychological terms, coined &amp; theorems by Carl Jung.  If you know how he obtained his specific &quot;theorem&quot; you wouldn&#039;t touch Jungian Psych with a 10ft pole.  The terms introvert &amp; extrovert have huge bearing in Jungian Psych.  I don&#039;t particularly care for using terms, obtained by divination &amp; occultic practice.

This isn&#039;t about &quot;personality&quot; this is about inter personal communication skills &amp; the comfort level &amp; gift for a person, in that skill.  Ones who are shy or reserved, have gifts lovingly designed by our God, to give glory to Him (Which I admire greatly, my better half is one of these). Our Lord uses those to His purposes, He designed them folks!  

I&#039;m not shy, I&#039;m the person you see smiling, shaking hands w/new faces, observing the countenances, of my brothers &amp; sisters on Sundays.  I am very demonstrative, and I am most comfortable showing it. I&#039;m the one that has no fear or problem speaking to strangers in any place or country, I may be in.  What does this article, say of me?  
 
According to this article, I am less apt to be &quot;liturgical&quot; or attend a &quot;liturgical&quot; church.  
Not true, wasn&#039;t, and won&#039;t be.  You, that Perfectly Designed little you, has no bearing on if you are liturgical or not (that is CHOICE).  You were not designed for/or to a degree, you were designed by God for God.  That has no bearing in this, on what you choose, that is to your own end.  

If I don&#039;t buy this farce, from the left, why would I buy it, recoated from the right?  I know Who gave me the strengths I have, and those aren&#039;t &quot;liturgical&quot;. I never want to attend a church made of all toes, that wouldn&#039;t make a body, would it?  Ya need a fair bit more than that.  We cannot all be digits, as we cannot all be vital organs, can we?  Both must be present and active, or you open the door to things like CGM/Emergent.  One of the reasons, I have always thought, this parasite got in the back door.  btw

If we used the same premise, this article states....
how would Katy Luther &amp; her sisters rate?  

Katharina (Luther) &amp; the sisters that flew w/her,  would still be sitting in their barrels. 

I beg here, have a bit of care &amp; discernment in what we see &amp; read on other sites, prior to us posting those articles here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few words of caution here in this article.  </p>
<p>Firstly, let&#8217;s remember that psychological personality &#8220;type&#8221; testing (Myers Briggs or portions of) are used in the surveys for CGM programs. It usually one of the first things TCN, or that type of program does, to asses the congregational demographics, congregational populis &amp;  congregational strengths. Something to bear in mind.  If we are willing to point out that error in others (Ablaze!, TCN, Purpose Driven, Fuller U. etc.) , we should avoid doing the same.  Let&#8217;s stay above the board, here.  This article, in my mind, lowers us to their level, which is what we try not to do &amp; are very willing to point out here.</p>
<p>Also, I caution anyone, to take great care, in using psychological terms, coined &amp; theorems by Carl Jung.  If you know how he obtained his specific &#8220;theorem&#8221; you wouldn&#8217;t touch Jungian Psych with a 10ft pole.  The terms introvert &amp; extrovert have huge bearing in Jungian Psych.  I don&#8217;t particularly care for using terms, obtained by divination &amp; occultic practice.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t about &#8220;personality&#8221; this is about inter personal communication skills &amp; the comfort level &amp; gift for a person, in that skill.  Ones who are shy or reserved, have gifts lovingly designed by our God, to give glory to Him (Which I admire greatly, my better half is one of these). Our Lord uses those to His purposes, He designed them folks!  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not shy, I&#8217;m the person you see smiling, shaking hands w/new faces, observing the countenances, of my brothers &amp; sisters on Sundays.  I am very demonstrative, and I am most comfortable showing it. I&#8217;m the one that has no fear or problem speaking to strangers in any place or country, I may be in.  What does this article, say of me?  </p>
<p>According to this article, I am less apt to be &#8220;liturgical&#8221; or attend a &#8220;liturgical&#8221; church.<br />
Not true, wasn&#8217;t, and won&#8217;t be.  You, that Perfectly Designed little you, has no bearing on if you are liturgical or not (that is CHOICE).  You were not designed for/or to a degree, you were designed by God for God.  That has no bearing in this, on what you choose, that is to your own end.  </p>
<p>If I don&#8217;t buy this farce, from the left, why would I buy it, recoated from the right?  I know Who gave me the strengths I have, and those aren&#8217;t &#8220;liturgical&#8221;. I never want to attend a church made of all toes, that wouldn&#8217;t make a body, would it?  Ya need a fair bit more than that.  We cannot all be digits, as we cannot all be vital organs, can we?  Both must be present and active, or you open the door to things like CGM/Emergent.  One of the reasons, I have always thought, this parasite got in the back door.  btw</p>
<p>If we used the same premise, this article states&#8230;.<br />
how would Katy Luther &amp; her sisters rate?  </p>
<p>Katharina (Luther) &amp; the sisters that flew w/her,  would still be sitting in their barrels. </p>
<p>I beg here, have a bit of care &amp; discernment in what we see &amp; read on other sites, prior to us posting those articles here.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd I. Cadle</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72431</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd I. Cadle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72431</guid>
		<description>Hi George!

It really help&#039;s if a pastor is teaching the class.  A couple of years ago, we had this one gentleman in our adult class, (he is a CPA--I bring that up only so folks won&#039;t think that he is a dummy) and he would keep asking question after question.  Finally, one Sunday I brought the Book of Concord to class, he happened to be out of town that week, but his wife was there.  So I showed her the Book of Concord and told her that most of the questions that her husband asked about were answered in the Book of Concord.  I told her that the Book of Concord even gave the Scripture references for the answers to his questions.

Unfortunately, some folks just don&#039;t want to take the time to study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi George!</p>
<p>It really help&#8217;s if a pastor is teaching the class.  A couple of years ago, we had this one gentleman in our adult class, (he is a CPA&#8211;I bring that up only so folks won&#8217;t think that he is a dummy) and he would keep asking question after question.  Finally, one Sunday I brought the Book of Concord to class, he happened to be out of town that week, but his wife was there.  So I showed her the Book of Concord and told her that most of the questions that her husband asked about were answered in the Book of Concord.  I told her that the Book of Concord even gave the Scripture references for the answers to his questions.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, some folks just don&#8217;t want to take the time to study.</p>
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		<title>By: George in Wheaton</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72429</link>
		<dc:creator>George in Wheaton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72429</guid>
		<description>One of the things that is perhaps the most damaging to an introvert (although by no means distasteful just to them - many extroverts hate it, as well) are the seemingly CG-driven, evangelically-oriented break-out discussion circles during Bible classes.  Mainline evangelicals just can&#039;t seem to resist having them.  My wife and I both detest them and will often leave a class in mid-session if it leads to them.

Yet, if you stop to think about it, these very discussion circles are the antithesis of everything the so-called &quot;seeker-oriented&quot; CG-driven churches claim to represent for they often place the newcomers in awkward situations where they feel that they are put on the spot, looked to by everyone else in the circle for answers, testimonies, and other emotionally demanding confrontations.  Among evangelicals, at least, these often include biblicistically-oriented challenges like, &quot;Well, what do YOU think about this passage?&quot;

Moreover, they are often dominated by extroverted, well acquainted members of the church who banter back and forth over scripture passages, current event issues, etc., typically carrying the discussion off topic and further alienating the introvert by making him/her feel like even more of a outsider wall flower.

They are, in essence, a cop-out; an easy way for the class teacher/leader/moderator/whatever to shift the burden from him/her to the individuals being put upon in the circle.  If classes are to be held then they should be TAUGHT - by qualified people.  And if the subject matter is such that it has to be the pastor then it should be the pastor, not some ill prepared lay person.  Otherwise, we&#039;re all back to the moralists who think that, instead of being catechized, everyone&#039;s subjectively-oriented opinion accounts for a valid answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things that is perhaps the most damaging to an introvert (although by no means distasteful just to them &#8211; many extroverts hate it, as well) are the seemingly CG-driven, evangelically-oriented break-out discussion circles during Bible classes.  Mainline evangelicals just can&#8217;t seem to resist having them.  My wife and I both detest them and will often leave a class in mid-session if it leads to them.</p>
<p>Yet, if you stop to think about it, these very discussion circles are the antithesis of everything the so-called &#8220;seeker-oriented&#8221; CG-driven churches claim to represent for they often place the newcomers in awkward situations where they feel that they are put on the spot, looked to by everyone else in the circle for answers, testimonies, and other emotionally demanding confrontations.  Among evangelicals, at least, these often include biblicistically-oriented challenges like, &#8220;Well, what do YOU think about this passage?&#8221;</p>
<p>Moreover, they are often dominated by extroverted, well acquainted members of the church who banter back and forth over scripture passages, current event issues, etc., typically carrying the discussion off topic and further alienating the introvert by making him/her feel like even more of a outsider wall flower.</p>
<p>They are, in essence, a cop-out; an easy way for the class teacher/leader/moderator/whatever to shift the burden from him/her to the individuals being put upon in the circle.  If classes are to be held then they should be TAUGHT &#8211; by qualified people.  And if the subject matter is such that it has to be the pastor then it should be the pastor, not some ill prepared lay person.  Otherwise, we&#8217;re all back to the moralists who think that, instead of being catechized, everyone&#8217;s subjectively-oriented opinion accounts for a valid answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd I. Cadle</title>
		<link>http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72427</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd I. Cadle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=9082#comment-72427</guid>
		<description>Norm Fisher:

I agree with you regarding the priorites of many Christians today.  With many (not all) God is almost like punching a time clock, where many just come early on Sunday, do their one hour of time with God, and then move on.

We all have to keep in prayer for God to give us a desire for His Word and serving in our churches.

I just thank the Lord that I am a Lutheran.  The great theology of Lutheranism and the love of Christ is what keeps me motivated to live a life of gratitude because Christ saved me.

A great help in any Lutheran church is just lending a helping hand where needed.  Many times folks are just to shy to get involved.  A church can sometimes help out by occasionally listing some needs that the church has.  Where some folks might otherwise be too shy to ask where they can help, if they see the needs listed, they very well might volunteer to help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norm Fisher:</p>
<p>I agree with you regarding the priorites of many Christians today.  With many (not all) God is almost like punching a time clock, where many just come early on Sunday, do their one hour of time with God, and then move on.</p>
<p>We all have to keep in prayer for God to give us a desire for His Word and serving in our churches.</p>
<p>I just thank the Lord that I am a Lutheran.  The great theology of Lutheranism and the love of Christ is what keeps me motivated to live a life of gratitude because Christ saved me.</p>
<p>A great help in any Lutheran church is just lending a helping hand where needed.  Many times folks are just to shy to get involved.  A church can sometimes help out by occasionally listing some needs that the church has.  Where some folks might otherwise be too shy to ask where they can help, if they see the needs listed, they very well might volunteer to help.</p>
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