Comments on: Part V of Martin Noland’s Essay on Laymens’ Rights ““ Contemporary Challenges to Laymen’s Rights in the LCMS: The Blue Ribbon Proposal http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964 An international fraternity of confessional Lutheran laymen and pastors, supporting proclamation of Christian doctrine in the new media. Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:03:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Matt P http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61232 Matt P Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:28:42 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61232 "One of the manifestations of this movement is the tendency to call our district presidents 'bishops' or our pastors 'father.' Those terms carry significant freight with them, and should be avoided by Lutherans." (Dr Noland's statement above). I actually agree with this for the most part. However, there is a large group of devout, confessional Lutherans who use these phrases. I prefer "Pastor" to "father." Frankly, we should refrain from using "bishops" because we don't have bishops. We could have bishops, but DPs are not bishops. “One of the manifestations of this movement is the tendency to call our district presidents ‘bishops’ or our pastors ‘father.’ Those terms carry significant freight with them, and should be avoided by Lutherans.” (Dr Noland’s statement above).

I actually agree with this for the most part. However, there is a large group of devout, confessional Lutherans who use these phrases. I prefer “Pastor” to “father.” Frankly, we should refrain from using “bishops” because we don’t have bishops. We could have bishops, but DPs are not bishops.

]]> By: helen http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61176 helen Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:30:56 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61176 <a href="#comment-60926" rel="nofollow">@Pr. John A. Frahm #4 </a> Thank you for your comments on "rights" and "roles", Pr. Frahm! Those terms made me wince all through the Rossow/Noland article. The only thing that was more surprising to me was the comment on Guido Merkens. "Even as late as the 1970s, many congregations were following programs devised by Pastor Guido Merkens of Saint Antonio and his “Living Lutheran Leadership” program for laymen. Merken’s programs are still useful, in my opinion." --Noland/Rossow I don't know what Guido was doing in the 70's. In the 80's/90's his "big church" methods were draining surrounding congregations of talented members, according to comments made by their Pastors. ["Sheep stealing" is a virtue in CG. St Mark, Houston, did much the same thing with an all city choir program. Theoretically, the choir members were to go back and improve the music in their home congregations. Actually, it didn't work out that way.] Guido's church was a model... until they got overly ambitious, moved to the upscale side of town and into more building debt than the members wanted to repay. By then, in classic CG fashion, Guido was gone; his successor also left and went to South America. (I haven't paid attention since the buzz over that last died down.) :( @Pr. John A. Frahm #4

Thank you for your comments on “rights” and “roles”, Pr. Frahm!
Those terms made me wince all through the Rossow/Noland article.

The only thing that was more surprising to me was the comment on Guido Merkens.
“Even as late as the 1970s, many congregations were following programs devised by Pastor Guido Merkens of Saint Antonio and his “Living Lutheran Leadership” program for laymen. Merken’s programs are still useful, in my opinion.” –Noland/Rossow

I don’t know what Guido was doing in the 70′s. In the 80′s/90′s his “big church” methods were draining surrounding congregations of talented members, according to comments made by their Pastors. ["Sheep stealing" is a virtue in CG. St Mark, Houston, did much the same thing with an all city choir program. Theoretically, the choir members were to go back and improve the music in their home congregations. Actually, it didn't work out that way.]
Guido’s church was a model… until they got overly ambitious, moved to the upscale side of town and into more building debt than the members wanted to repay. By then, in classic CG fashion, Guido was gone; his successor also left and went to South America.
(I haven’t paid attention since the buzz over that last died down.) :(

]]> By: Dutch http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61166 Dutch Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:02:26 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61166 Johannes, Make quick w/the wee one article. My little boy does know a wee bit of what goes on at this site, and he & I are waiting. You KNOW how horrid this perverts Scripture & Doctrine for youth & young ones. That has not been spoken much of here. Post it, as you have it! Members, youth, wee ones, "mature" ones, need to know what you have been writing! Perfection, isn't expected, facts & Scriptural Truth is all that is warranted. What you may write in the article posted, may inform & reform many Johannes. Johannes,
Make quick w/the wee one article. My little boy does know a wee bit of what goes on at this site, and he & I are waiting. You KNOW how horrid this perverts Scripture & Doctrine for youth & young ones. That has not been spoken much of here. Post it, as you have it!
Members, youth, wee ones, “mature” ones, need to know what you have been writing!
Perfection, isn’t expected, facts & Scriptural Truth is all that is warranted. What you may write in the article posted, may inform & reform many Johannes.

]]> By: johannes http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61134 johannes Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:05:38 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61134 <a href="#comment-61047" rel="nofollow">@P.W. #14 </a> Unfortunately, the story is incomplete. I know some congregations have decided not to continue TC after being exposed to it--I don't know who they are. Most of the congregations I am familiar with are still in the middle of things, so there is little to report. The "some changes" you talk about must be substantive, or the program will be just another CG program. For one thing, the accountable leader business must be dropped. The Gospel, which is missing from all the TC prescriptions I have seen (about 20 or so), must be integrated into the prescriptions. I recently visited the Seminary in Fort Wayne, and found out that the Indiana District is doing a "Revitalization" type program, but I don't have any info on that. It sounds similar to TC in methodology--self study, weekend visit, presentations & prescriptions, but without TC's onerous flaws, but I have no specifics. I think you'd be well served to contact them and see what you can find out. If you are considering TC, beware! @P.W. #14
Unfortunately, the story is incomplete. I know some congregations have decided not to continue TC after being exposed to it–I don’t know who they are. Most of the congregations I am familiar with are still in the middle of things, so there is little to report. The “some changes” you talk about must be substantive, or the program will be just another CG program. For one thing, the accountable leader business must be dropped. The Gospel, which is missing from all the TC prescriptions I have seen (about 20 or so), must be integrated into the prescriptions. I recently visited the Seminary in Fort Wayne, and found out that the Indiana District is doing a “Revitalization” type program, but I don’t have any info on that. It sounds similar to TC in methodology–self study, weekend visit, presentations & prescriptions, but without TC’s onerous flaws, but I have no specifics.

I think you’d be well served to contact them and see what you can find out.

If you are considering TC, beware!

]]> By: P.W. http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61047 P.W. Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:02:13 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61047 We are looking at introducing TCN at the District level here in Canada (with some changes as I understand it). Does anyone have any evidence of the results form a congregation (or preferably a few) that show what happens to one of these congregations that has gone through this process? Thanks We are looking at introducing TCN at the District level here in Canada (with some changes as I understand it). Does anyone have any evidence of the results form a congregation (or preferably a few) that show what happens to one of these congregations that has gone through this process?

Thanks

]]> By: C.S. http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61013 C.S. Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:03:27 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61013 The spread of TCN/Church Growth mentality at the local, district, and synod level is concerning to say the least. Many of our supposed servants or shepherds have become consumed with and corrupted by power and their desire to do things their way. They trample on sheep under the guise of their love for and desire to save lost souls. The thing that gives the wolves away is their lack of love for the souls of at least some of the sheep already under their care. The Good Shepherd will always provide for and protect His sheep. The pastures are green and the water still. We need fear no evil, for Jesus Christ is with us, His rod and His staff do comfort us. Thanks Dr. Noland for your fine essay. The spread of TCN/Church Growth mentality at the local, district, and synod level is concerning to say the least. Many of our supposed servants or shepherds have become consumed with and corrupted by power and their desire to do things their way. They trample on sheep under the guise of their love for and desire to save lost souls. The thing that gives the wolves away is their lack of love for the souls of at least some of the sheep already under their care. The Good Shepherd will always provide for and protect His sheep. The pastures are green and the water still. We need fear no evil, for Jesus Christ is with us, His rod and His staff do comfort us.

Thanks Dr. Noland for your fine essay.

]]> By: johannes http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61010 johannes Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:47:23 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-61010 <a href="#comment-60997" rel="nofollow">@John Hooss #11 </a> When the Means of Grace are no longer seen as efficacious, a "program mentality" sets in. Programs that promise growth are invited "in" and they replace the Gospel with the Law. TCN is simply the latest church growth program of the day. It's that simple. I'm afraid a lot of sincere hard-working and well-meaning Christian people are going to be very disappointed. @John Hooss #11
When the Means of Grace are no longer seen as efficacious, a “program mentality” sets in. Programs that promise growth are invited “in” and they replace the Gospel with the Law. TCN is simply the latest church growth program of the day. It’s that simple.

I’m afraid a lot of sincere hard-working and well-meaning Christian people are going to be very disappointed.

]]> By: John Hooss http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-60997 John Hooss Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:47:38 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-60997 This is the generation that will give away all that our fathers and grandfathers worked for. I cannot even fathom my father or grandfather (or myself for that matter) willingly suspend the congregations constititution. What in the world! They would have shown them the curb, or shove them down the river without a padddle. This is what happens when we think we can do better. The problem is, the solution is too easy! It's all been done for you! Let the Holy Spirit do the work. Ya know, You folks out of St. Louis. I think you can focus better than I can. I get to drive past the JF HQ and the SOB to and from work, day in and day out. I vurp every time I think of what new outdated program will spew forth from the bottom of lake LCMS on Kirkwood Rd. The only thing that keeeps me going is that there is still some good things coming out of the palace. There are better men than me, brighter, well spoken etc. I will support those men. That is what my duty / right is. John This is the generation that will give away all that our fathers and grandfathers worked for.
I cannot even fathom my father or grandfather (or myself for that matter) willingly suspend the congregations constititution. What in the world! They would have shown them the curb, or shove them down the river without a padddle. This is what happens when we think we can do better. The problem is, the solution is too easy! It’s all been done for you! Let the Holy Spirit do the work.

Ya know, You folks out of St. Louis. I think you can focus better than I can.
I get to drive past the JF HQ and the SOB to and from work, day in and day out.
I vurp every time I think of what new outdated program will spew forth from the bottom of lake LCMS on Kirkwood Rd.

The only thing that keeeps me going is that there is still some good things coming out of the palace.

There are better men than me, brighter, well spoken etc. I will support those men. That is what my duty / right is.

John

]]> By: A Walther descendant http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-60956 A Walther descendant Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:09:17 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-60956 Whoo! Borden gets my vote for cynic of the year. And the LCMS bureaucrats who endorse this view, my vote for co-conspirator. What a disturbing thing, that those "leaders" would subscribe to such a distorted interpretation of the 23rd Psalm. Pastor Noland, meanwhile, gets my hurrah yet again. For what all that's worth. 8-) Whoo! Borden gets my vote for cynic of the year. And the LCMS bureaucrats who endorse this view, my vote for co-conspirator. What a disturbing thing, that those “leaders” would subscribe to such a distorted interpretation of the 23rd Psalm.

Pastor Noland, meanwhile, gets my hurrah yet again.

For what all that’s worth. 8-)

]]> By: Dutch http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-60942 Dutch Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:02:10 +0000 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=7964#comment-60942 Oh, Pastor Frahm, I totally agree w/you! Constitutions, bylaws, ammendments, point of order, rights, priviliges, etc. Oi vey. How in the world, did we get this all so muddied? Oh, Pastor Frahm, I totally agree w/you! Constitutions, bylaws, ammendments, point of order, rights, priviliges, etc. Oi vey. How in the world, did we get this all so muddied?

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